Yezevee writes:
yeezevee writes: zuher responds to D_T. He seem to be frustrated that no one from FFI is arguing with him the way he
interprets Mr. Muhammad's Q'uran.
My Response:
Dear yeezevee, (yzv)
Thank you for your response. If I am not mistaken, you were the first one to welcome me on FFI.org. That is much
appreciated. Now direct to your comments. As regards to your claim of me being frustrated, that is a total misconception.
Please do read my posts and you will find me a very patient person. No one arguing with me, except you now, is not a source
of frustration at all. With the people following this thread, I assure you, it does generate quite a bit of interest. Trhe fact
remains my interpretation of the Quran is the gerally acceptable interpretation of the holy Book and true sense it leaves you
and your likes dumb founded and true to word the Quran has that effect on disbelievers. There are seals on your hearts and
minds after all, aren’t there? Don’t you feel it? Don’t you get brain locked sometimes when true interpretations of Quran hit
you??
I have faced many debates before and considerable numbers have submitted to the true interpretation of the Quran given to
them despite their skewed interpretive misconceptions at the outset. I find this no different and I have never been frustrated,
Alhamdulillah. In fact it gives me the chance to learn the Quran better and probably, not you or any anti-islamist on FFI, but
those reading will gain some insight as to the mode of interpretations anti-islamists use to hoodwink the masses.
The Quran remains infallible. That is why I have chosen the Holy Book as my first mode of debate. Then probably to Islamic
history, the holy Prophet PBUH, The ahadith, and maybe politics. So there is a distinct line of argument I would like to follow, of
course this is with your permission.
The verse below guides my line of argument and maybe a reason why many FFI members do not want to debate on the line of
the holy Quran alone. But as you have made the effort, it is highly commendable.
When you recite the Qur'an, We place an obscuring veil between you and those who do not believe in the
hereafter. We have placed covers on their hearts, preventing them from understanding it, and heaviness in their
ears. When you mention your Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn their backs and run away. (Surat al-Isra': 45-46)
I welcome your viewpoint and I humbly respond as thus:
Yeezevee writes:
I have not read all of his posts and I am not very sure of what Q'uranic verses did he take to explain that is different from FFI
folks for e.g. Ali Sina or D_T interpretation. But I will read through zuher explanation of Q'uran.
My Response:
Do kindly read all my posts to Ali Sina and DT. Those are pretty detailed exegesis of the Holy Quran acceptable by a good
number of Muslims and consistent with many tafaseer (commentaries). So don’t worry about MY INTERPRETATION. I assure
you its not mine alone.
Yeezevee writes:
So I wonder what Surahs Mr. zuher has taken to prove the point "that the Q'uran is an unquestionable manual from Allah/God
for all Human beings." I went through all 114 chapters and I am running around that book in circles. This thread give us a good
starting point to understand Q'uran in different way.
My Response:
The verses I have used in my posts are the same verses that have been used by my opponents, either Ali Sina or DT to show
their view of interpretation. So rest assured, the verses which are in the 114 chapters of the Holy Quran that you allege to
have read, and chosen by you will be the ones I use only. After all what is a debate if its not comment and rebuttal on points
raised? So I will use your verses and open them up, hoping your mind is open to at least view the interpretation objectively.
Yeezevee writes:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42&start=0 Any way I will read through his posts. Let me put some more
Surahs for him to explain here.
So let us see how our zuher explains the following couple of Surahs
002.178 : O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the
slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand,
and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds
the limits shall be in grave penalty.
002.179: In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
What is that GARBAGE?? , ....woman for woman?? what Nonsense is that? is that LAW OF EQUALITY?? what is this women
are piece of meat to exchange dear zuher ??
My Response:
Oh and I thought we would argue, for once, in a sober manner, scholarly aptitude and prudence in speech, dear yzv. Well, let
me maintain the sober words and leave the rather questionable ones to you, for your use.
Ok. 2:178-179, these are your new verses to me for detailed explanation. I note you have opted to highlight “woman for
woman” part quite well. Maybe a mode of incitement? But I will take it as a simple question of explanation and no malice
intended.
0 You who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave,
and the female for the female; but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then (the demand for the
blood wit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good man¬ner; this is an alleviation
from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this, he shall have a painful chastisement (178). And there is
life for you in the retali¬ation, 0 men of understanding, that you may guard your¬selves (against evil) (179).
COMMENTARY
QUR'AN: 0 you who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain; the free for the free...:
The verse is addressed to the believers. It means that the law promulgated herein applies to the Muslims only. As regards the
non Muslims whether under protection of an Islamic State or not the verse is silent about them.
al Qisas (= retaliation) is the masdar of qassa yuqassu (he followed, he follows); an Arab says: qassa atharahu (= he followed
someone's tracks). Another derivative is al qassas (= story teller) it is as though he follows the tracks of the past generations.
Retaliation is called al qisas because it follows the footsteps of the offender, giving him a punishment similar to that which he
had inflicted upon his victim.
QUR'AN: “but if any remission is made to any one by his (ag¬grieved) brother”:
Its literal translation is: then whoever is remitted any thing by his brother. "Whoever" refers to the murderer; the heir/s of the
murdered person may waive his/their right of retali¬ation. Therefore, "any thing" refers to that right; it is used here as a
common noun, in order that the rule may cover all possibil¬ities, whether there was a full remission or partial. Let us say, for
example, that there are many heirs and only some of them waive their right; then there shall be no retaliation; instead the
blood money will be imposed. The heir of the murdered person who has the right of retaliation) has extraordinarily been
described here as the "brother" of the murderer; this expression has been used to awaken the feeling of love and kindness in
the heart of the aggrieved party, and gives a hint to him that remission and forgiveness is highly preferable in the eyes of
Allah.
QUR'AN: then (the demand for the blood wit) should be made according to the usage, and payment should be made to him in
a good manner:
Its literal translation is: then following according to usage, and payment to him in a good manner. Both phrases are subjects
with their predicates implied. Thus literally it would mean: then it is obligatory on the aggrieved "brother" to follow that
remission with demand for the blood money according to usage; and it is obligatory on the murderer to pay it to the aggrieved
brother, that is, heir of the slain, in a good manner without any annoying delay.
QUR'AN: this is alleviation from your Lord and a mercy:
The permission to commute the retaliation into blood money is alleviation from your Lord, and therefore, once effected, it
cannot be changed. The heir of the slain person cannot revert to retaliation after granting remission. If he transgresses the
limit and retaliates after remission, then he shall have a painful chastisement.
QUR'AN: And there is life for you in the retaliation, 0 men of understanding, that you guard yourselves (against evil):
This verse points to the philosophy of this legislation. It aims at removing a possible misunderstanding that because Allah has
allowed remission and blood money, and also because remission expands the circle of mercy and affection remission is more
in con¬formity with public weal and social good. The verse shows that, although remission is alleviation based on mercy,
common good and society's peace depend on the retaliation. The only guarantee of life is the law of retaliation, and not
remission, blood money, or any other thing. Man has to accept this fact, if he has understanding. "that you may guard
yourselves" that is, from murder. It gives the basic of the law of retaliation.
The scholars have said that the verse, "and there is life for you in the retaliation," is one of the most eloquent in its clarity, and
the most refined in rhetoric, in addition to its having many other fine literary points, like brevity it has so few words and such a
small number of total letters fluency of style and clarity of composition. It combines the force of argument with beauty of
meaning, the fineness of proof with clarity of result.
Before this verse was revealed, the Arabs were fond of some adages and maxims (on the subject of murder and retaliation), of
whose rhetoric and fluency they were very proud. For example: 'To kill some is to keep alive all', and 'To increase killing is to
decrease killing'. And the most remarkable in their eyes was the sentence: 'Killing stamps out killing.' But when this verse was
revealed all were forgotten. Some of its distinguishing points are as follows: The verse has fewer letters, and is easy to
pronounce. "the retaliation" with definite article is a proper noun, while "life " is common noun it shows that the resulting good
is greater and more widespread than the retaliation. It explains the result in clear words and describes the real philosophy of
the law, that is, the life. It unambiguously shows by what means the desired result can be obtained: Obviously, it is the
retaliation that leads to life, and not the killing. (After all, many killings are done unjustly, and they do not lead to life, they are
negation of life.) The word, "retaliation," covers also other punishments besides killing, that is, the reprisal in the matter of
injury, etc. and such retributions too lead to the society's life. The word conveys another extra meaning, as it shows that the
retribution has resulted from unjust killing. (Compare it with their maxim, "Killing stamps out killing", which does not give any
idea that "killing" refers to any punishment.) Then there is an exhortation in this sentence, as it points to a life reserved for the
people, whom they are oblivious of; it behooves them to take hold of it as it really belongs to them; it is as if someone tells you:
There is a property belonging to you with so and so, or in such and such a place. Lastly, the opening word of the verse, that
is, "for you" makes it clear to the men of understanding that the law giver only desires to protect their interest, and no benefit
is ever to accrue to him.
These are a few of the fine points found in this verse. The scholars have mentioned some more points, which may be seen in
the books of rhetoric. The fact is, the more deeply you look at this verse, the more dazzled you shall be by its brilliance and
radiance; and the word of Allah is the highest.
Look at history, the law of Moses was quite clear and more stringent. An eye for an eye. Is this not the same as is repeated in
the Quranic verse you quote?? All the Quran does is to show you what the Law of Moses and the bible was and is still carried
but a touch of humanity was put in. This law was still repeated in the bible at the time of Jesus. It is at the time of Muhammad
PBUH, that the compensation of blood money was issued for murder. In essence the death penalty for murder was made more
humane in Islam with the inculcation of blood-money for the deceased family. Look at the verse as it ends “…this is an
alleviation from your Lord and a mercy…” Today, look at the Middle East, or wherever Islamic law is implemented as regards
the death penalty for murder and then compare that with the west. Can you tell me what are rates of homicide of each of these
regions compared to the other??? Do you want statistics?? A homicide every 3 hours in New York, a rape every 1.5 hours.
Both are punishable by death in Islamic law. This is just NY. I haven’t touched the whole of USA, Rio De Janiero or Jo’burg yet.
Deny that??? Why because in NY, a murderer can get away with murder 1 with a few years in prison and then the rest on
parole? So what the hell, just kill and let the legal system take care of me. There is no death penalty.
Yzv, your brother/father is innocently killed on the streets on NY, God forbid. The poor guy couldn’t defend himself and was
killed with no apparent reason. Probably he looked at someone in the eye as he walked past him. The guy just picked up a
knife and slit the poor guy’s throat. What would you demand?? Consequently, the court finds him guilty of murder, but
because he pleaded guilty, the defense attorney and the prosecution put the charge down to voluntary man slaughter. 3
years in a state penitentiary of which 1 and half years on parole. 3 years later the murderer of your brother/father walks
around, in your neighborhood, a free man. Maybe worse, the guy pleaded temporal insanity and was let to go Scott free with
60 hours community service. This is a farce. A miscarriage of justice and yet here you are trying to oppose the death penalty
as stipulated in Islamic law. Islamic law in this regard acts as a deterrent to such crimes.
In Saudi Arabia, where Islamic law is implemented for murder, their highest record of murder was 56 in a year. That is a
murder every 4 days. What wouldn’t you give to see such low crime rates in the West?? With all the braggadocio of
technological advancement and Nobel prizes, we have become scientists, but not yet humans. If anything, it is the laxity of
implementation of Islamic type law to deal with murder/rape. You will never feel the pinch nor appreciate the situation until one
of your close ones is directly affected then you will know what Islam offers. Trust me, when it hits you, you will be the first up in
arms asking for the death penalty to be implemented. Why?? Because it’s your own blood that was spilt. Think for once, like
the one violated.
Talk to me with facts Yzv, and after putting yourself in the same shoes as the one violated. Don’t just throw words at the Quran
akin to someone who has to take an extreme stance whatever the sense on other side of the argument. I am just referring to
your verse that you have quoted. Nothing more nothing less.
Yeezevee writes:
What is that GARBAGE?? , ....woman for woman?? What Nonsense is that? is that LAW OF EQUALITY?? what is this women
are piece of meat to exchange dear zuher ??
My Response:
You are asking me about women and how Islam treats them. My friend, you’re flying on the wrong tangent completely, if you
feel that Islam and the Quran belittles women. You haven’t raised any query on the issue of “free for free” or “slave for slave”.
This totally is in line with the Law of Moses/Jesus…an eye for an eye. It could have easily been boy for boy, cow for cow, goat
for goat, *** for *** or man for man. What is your issue about “woman for woman”? You practice it too every single day of your
life.
In fact Sina has said severally “he pays people in their own coin”. Is that not a perfect example of “an eye for an eye”? What
more summary of the same law do you need if it’s not from the originator of FFI himself?
I don’t know if you are quite aware of what you’re asking. Please be clear with your question so that I can know what you are
targeting. I would be more than happy to alleviate you of any pain as regards the Quran that you may have.
Yeezeve writes:
Quote:
002.191: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and
oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they
fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
002.192: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
064.014: O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware
of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
What oppression?, what slaughter? who fought who? and whose wives and whose children are (some that are) whose
enemies dear zuher ?
My Response:
I don’t think you have read my second post to Sina as regards the above verse. You are quoting completely out of context and
asking quite an iniquitous question. According to many scholars and from my logic, there are 5 verses revealed together and
this gives a clear explanation of the verses and its interpretation. I can very easily pick a single sentence from any of your post
and distort the meaning and its interpretation to suit my ends to the point that it actually means the complete opposite of what
you intended it to mean. So let’s look at this in a more scholarly manner rather than, as you put it, in “GARBAGE”
interpretation.
Quran 2: 190-195
And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you and do not exceed the limits. Verily, Allah loves not those who
exceed the limit. (190) And kill them wherever you find them and drive them out from whence they drove you out; and mischief
(disbelief) is more grievous than slaughter; and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you therein;
but if they do fight you than slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then verily Allah is
forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight with them until there is no (more) mischief (disbelief), and religion be only for Allah; but if
they desist then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. (193) The sacred month for the sacred month and
reprisal (is lawful) in all sacred things; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict the like aggression on him as he has
inflicted on you; and fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (194) And spend in the way of Allah
and cast not yourselves into perdition with your own hands; and do good; verily Allah loves those who do good. (195)
The context of the verses shows that they were revealed together. The whole talk has only one aim: permission, for the first
time, of fighting with the polytheists of Mecca. These verses refer to driving them out from whence they drove the believers
out, to disbelief and to reprisal; they prohibit fighting with them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight the believers in it. All
these matters were connected with the polytheists of Mecca. Also, the sentence: fight in the way of Allah with those who fight
with you, deserves more attention. It is not a condition, i.e., it does not mean, "fight with them if they fight with you". Nor is it a
restrictive clause (as some people think) meaning, "fight with the men, and not with their women and children who are not in a
position to fight with you", because nobody "fights" with those who are unable to fight back. Had it been the aim of the
sentence, it would have been proper to say "do not kill them". Therefore, the words those who fight with you only refer to a fact
fight those who are presently engaged in fighting against you. And it points to the polytheists of Mecca.
These five verses together promulgate a single law covering all its limits and details. And fight in the way of Allah is the basic
law; and do not exceed the limit puts disciplinary restriction on it; And kill them wherever you find them defines the limits of
pressure; and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you therein puts a restriction according to the
place; and fight with them until there is no more mischief (dis¬belief) shows its duration; The sacred month for the sacred
month, and reprisal (is lawful) in all sacred things explains that this legislation is based on the principle of retaliation in fighting
and killing, it is paying them in their own coin; And spend in the way of Allah makes the believers responsible for the financial
preparations for war: they must spend for their own preparation and for that of others. Therefore, it seems that all the five
verses were sent down together about one subject. It is wrong to say (as some have done) that some of these verses
abrogate the others; or that they were revealed separately on different occasions. In fact, the aim of all these verses is one:
permission to fight against the polytheists of Mecca who were fighting the believers.
I ask you yzv, in all your scholarly aptitude that you profess to have, do you not also fight against one who fights you. Do you
not also pay someone in his/their own coin? In fact you pay in more than your opponents’ coins. Then when you have nothing
more to pay you send them to your forum. Why then keep on contradicting yourself in manner that would create doubt as to
your aptitude. Shades of the typical Sina-syndrome.
Allah finished this talk on "doing good", and said: and do good; verily Allah loves the doers of good. Doing good does not
mean desisting from fighting, or clemency in killing the enemies of the religion etc. It means doing a wok in its proper way:
Fight when fighting is required; restrain yourselves when restraint is preferred; be strict where strictness is demanded by
reason, and forgive where forgiveness will not embolden the enemy. In short, repulsing the oppressor by the most reasonable
means is to do good for humanity, because this repulsion guarantees humanity its due right, and defends the religion which
would improve man's condition in both worlds.
After all this, yzv, what asininity has the Holy Quran implied in this verse by asking believers to fight in retaliation with those
who fight them? If you also believe and practice the same, and of course every self respecting person would too, why hold the
Quran responsible for misquoted and misinterpreted asininity, which in general life is actually a noble act?
As regards your query on Sura Taghabun, what’s the problem yzv?? Its simple. The verse merely stipulates that some wives
and children can lead the believers astray in doing the wrong thing. How many times have you heard of this where wives make
men co0mmit evil acts? In that sense do they not become enemies in faith. But the magnanimity of forgiveness is stressed by
Allah SWT. What’s wrong? I don not see what you are hinting at, at all.
Yeezevee writes:
History in connection with violent expansion of Islam
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 11&start=0
Right after a year his first Khadija died, Mr. Muhammad and his followers simply subjugated, butchered any one who didn't
believe in his stories.
Quote:
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of
Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet
In All those 13 years or so he lived after Khadija died, until he died, Mr. Muhammad and his followers has become was nothing
but war Machine. In those 13 years that fellow marries 13 young women and another 13 or so concubines, more than half of
them were half of his age, one was child and other was his adopted son's wife. The Guy was nothing but a warlord and Sex
Obsessed dirty old man. You have to realize Q'uran is book that was put together after his death in the times of Caliphas,
Specailly Abu Bakr and Umar Farooq., Both were younger than Muhammad and father in-laws of Muhammad. All those Voilent
verses in Q'uran in support of Muhammad and his followers came from him many others verses those writers of Q'uran
copy/pasted other religions of that time including from Muhammad's pagan ancestors. After his death., you have four
Caliphas. Two Father Inlaws and two Son In-laws.. Whole Goddamn Islam is nothing but clowns of Muhammad's Clan to start
with .. Even with in the Islam .. these Idiots take the Q'uranic verses like this one
Quote:
064.014: O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware
of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
.. Go on fighting forever. Fight with others and fight within Muslims...
See these wars with in Islam??... after his death they are nothing but Horrible infighting and killing each other., What God?
what Allah is that to make them fight with his/her/its preachings dear Zuher? .. Sure you know Shia/Sunni to start with .. Now
see these things at the same thread
Quote:
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan. Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
662: Khawarij revolts.
666: Raid of Sicily.
670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan
and withdraw to Burqa.
683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj
Rahat.
685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once
again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish
See those wars.. it is Just 70 years of Muhammad's Islam.. It is nothing but death and destruction of cultures that were around
Arabia and infights and killings between the Muslim Leaders..
Whole thing is rubbish dear Zuher., see this Nonsense..
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan. Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
Can you see this ISLAMIC GARBAGE wih in Islam?..It still continues to to thihs day..Islam became a a Perpetual war machinary
from STUPID BOOK..
But as you are complaing that no one is discussing with you "ON Q'uran Alone" at FFI.. Please go through that Q'uranic
thread.. we BOTH TOGETHER ..will read each and every Surah ..all 114 chapters., and I am sure by the time you come to the
end of 114, you will realize that book is just book put together along with some Muhammad's Rubbish.. So don't say this
Quote:
Pray tell, kind sir
My Response:
As regards your query on the violent History of Islamic expansion, that is a very crude misconception if I ever heard of one. Is
this what you call an argument or a challenge? This is not even a rudimentary point you have made of any substantive IQ. All
you have done is mention the names of conquests and held them completely as war to spread Islam and gain booty. That is
quite unscholarly. Do you even know the back and forth, head or tail of these conquests? Do you know what the predisposing
circumstances were? That is an inane judgement you have just made typical of Sina-type sweeping generalizations. However, I
will only handle history of Islam once you have exhausted everything you had to ask on Quran. I am sure you have a lot to
ask. So let’s move step by step and not mix issues. This is for the benefit of all those following and not just you and me.
Yeezevee writes:
and don't get disappointed.. Please continue to write and educate the folk the way you understand Q'uran..
My Response:
My friend, gauge from my talk and tell me who is heading for disappointment. Pray tell, kind sir.
I refer Quran 17:81, Truth is here and falsehood shall perish, for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.
Yeezevee writes:
with best regards
yeezevee
My Response:
With duas,
Zuher
Back to the section of Zuher
Send Email to Zuher
yeezevee writes: zuher responds to D_T. He seem to be frustrated that no one from FFI is arguing with him the way he
interprets Mr. Muhammad's Q'uran.
My Response:
Dear yeezevee, (yzv)
Thank you for your response. If I am not mistaken, you were the first one to welcome me on FFI.org. That is much
appreciated. Now direct to your comments. As regards to your claim of me being frustrated, that is a total misconception.
Please do read my posts and you will find me a very patient person. No one arguing with me, except you now, is not a source
of frustration at all. With the people following this thread, I assure you, it does generate quite a bit of interest. Trhe fact
remains my interpretation of the Quran is the gerally acceptable interpretation of the holy Book and true sense it leaves you
and your likes dumb founded and true to word the Quran has that effect on disbelievers. There are seals on your hearts and
minds after all, aren’t there? Don’t you feel it? Don’t you get brain locked sometimes when true interpretations of Quran hit
you??
I have faced many debates before and considerable numbers have submitted to the true interpretation of the Quran given to
them despite their skewed interpretive misconceptions at the outset. I find this no different and I have never been frustrated,
Alhamdulillah. In fact it gives me the chance to learn the Quran better and probably, not you or any anti-islamist on FFI, but
those reading will gain some insight as to the mode of interpretations anti-islamists use to hoodwink the masses.
The Quran remains infallible. That is why I have chosen the Holy Book as my first mode of debate. Then probably to Islamic
history, the holy Prophet PBUH, The ahadith, and maybe politics. So there is a distinct line of argument I would like to follow, of
course this is with your permission.
The verse below guides my line of argument and maybe a reason why many FFI members do not want to debate on the line of
the holy Quran alone. But as you have made the effort, it is highly commendable.
When you recite the Qur'an, We place an obscuring veil between you and those who do not believe in the
hereafter. We have placed covers on their hearts, preventing them from understanding it, and heaviness in their
ears. When you mention your Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn their backs and run away. (Surat al-Isra': 45-46)
I welcome your viewpoint and I humbly respond as thus:
Yeezevee writes:
I have not read all of his posts and I am not very sure of what Q'uranic verses did he take to explain that is different from FFI
folks for e.g. Ali Sina or D_T interpretation. But I will read through zuher explanation of Q'uran.
My Response:
Do kindly read all my posts to Ali Sina and DT. Those are pretty detailed exegesis of the Holy Quran acceptable by a good
number of Muslims and consistent with many tafaseer (commentaries). So don’t worry about MY INTERPRETATION. I assure
you its not mine alone.
Yeezevee writes:
So I wonder what Surahs Mr. zuher has taken to prove the point "that the Q'uran is an unquestionable manual from Allah/God
for all Human beings." I went through all 114 chapters and I am running around that book in circles. This thread give us a good
starting point to understand Q'uran in different way.
My Response:
The verses I have used in my posts are the same verses that have been used by my opponents, either Ali Sina or DT to show
their view of interpretation. So rest assured, the verses which are in the 114 chapters of the Holy Quran that you allege to
have read, and chosen by you will be the ones I use only. After all what is a debate if its not comment and rebuttal on points
raised? So I will use your verses and open them up, hoping your mind is open to at least view the interpretation objectively.
Yeezevee writes:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42&start=0 Any way I will read through his posts. Let me put some more
Surahs for him to explain here.
So let us see how our zuher explains the following couple of Surahs
002.178 : O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the
slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand,
and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds
the limits shall be in grave penalty.
002.179: In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
What is that GARBAGE?? , ....woman for woman?? what Nonsense is that? is that LAW OF EQUALITY?? what is this women
are piece of meat to exchange dear zuher ??
My Response:
Oh and I thought we would argue, for once, in a sober manner, scholarly aptitude and prudence in speech, dear yzv. Well, let
me maintain the sober words and leave the rather questionable ones to you, for your use.
Ok. 2:178-179, these are your new verses to me for detailed explanation. I note you have opted to highlight “woman for
woman” part quite well. Maybe a mode of incitement? But I will take it as a simple question of explanation and no malice
intended.
0 You who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave,
and the female for the female; but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then (the demand for the
blood wit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good man¬ner; this is an alleviation
from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this, he shall have a painful chastisement (178). And there is
life for you in the retali¬ation, 0 men of understanding, that you may guard your¬selves (against evil) (179).
COMMENTARY
QUR'AN: 0 you who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain; the free for the free...:
The verse is addressed to the believers. It means that the law promulgated herein applies to the Muslims only. As regards the
non Muslims whether under protection of an Islamic State or not the verse is silent about them.
al Qisas (= retaliation) is the masdar of qassa yuqassu (he followed, he follows); an Arab says: qassa atharahu (= he followed
someone's tracks). Another derivative is al qassas (= story teller) it is as though he follows the tracks of the past generations.
Retaliation is called al qisas because it follows the footsteps of the offender, giving him a punishment similar to that which he
had inflicted upon his victim.
QUR'AN: “but if any remission is made to any one by his (ag¬grieved) brother”:
Its literal translation is: then whoever is remitted any thing by his brother. "Whoever" refers to the murderer; the heir/s of the
murdered person may waive his/their right of retali¬ation. Therefore, "any thing" refers to that right; it is used here as a
common noun, in order that the rule may cover all possibil¬ities, whether there was a full remission or partial. Let us say, for
example, that there are many heirs and only some of them waive their right; then there shall be no retaliation; instead the
blood money will be imposed. The heir of the murdered person who has the right of retaliation) has extraordinarily been
described here as the "brother" of the murderer; this expression has been used to awaken the feeling of love and kindness in
the heart of the aggrieved party, and gives a hint to him that remission and forgiveness is highly preferable in the eyes of
Allah.
QUR'AN: then (the demand for the blood wit) should be made according to the usage, and payment should be made to him in
a good manner:
Its literal translation is: then following according to usage, and payment to him in a good manner. Both phrases are subjects
with their predicates implied. Thus literally it would mean: then it is obligatory on the aggrieved "brother" to follow that
remission with demand for the blood money according to usage; and it is obligatory on the murderer to pay it to the aggrieved
brother, that is, heir of the slain, in a good manner without any annoying delay.
QUR'AN: this is alleviation from your Lord and a mercy:
The permission to commute the retaliation into blood money is alleviation from your Lord, and therefore, once effected, it
cannot be changed. The heir of the slain person cannot revert to retaliation after granting remission. If he transgresses the
limit and retaliates after remission, then he shall have a painful chastisement.
QUR'AN: And there is life for you in the retaliation, 0 men of understanding, that you guard yourselves (against evil):
This verse points to the philosophy of this legislation. It aims at removing a possible misunderstanding that because Allah has
allowed remission and blood money, and also because remission expands the circle of mercy and affection remission is more
in con¬formity with public weal and social good. The verse shows that, although remission is alleviation based on mercy,
common good and society's peace depend on the retaliation. The only guarantee of life is the law of retaliation, and not
remission, blood money, or any other thing. Man has to accept this fact, if he has understanding. "that you may guard
yourselves" that is, from murder. It gives the basic of the law of retaliation.
The scholars have said that the verse, "and there is life for you in the retaliation," is one of the most eloquent in its clarity, and
the most refined in rhetoric, in addition to its having many other fine literary points, like brevity it has so few words and such a
small number of total letters fluency of style and clarity of composition. It combines the force of argument with beauty of
meaning, the fineness of proof with clarity of result.
Before this verse was revealed, the Arabs were fond of some adages and maxims (on the subject of murder and retaliation), of
whose rhetoric and fluency they were very proud. For example: 'To kill some is to keep alive all', and 'To increase killing is to
decrease killing'. And the most remarkable in their eyes was the sentence: 'Killing stamps out killing.' But when this verse was
revealed all were forgotten. Some of its distinguishing points are as follows: The verse has fewer letters, and is easy to
pronounce. "the retaliation" with definite article is a proper noun, while "life " is common noun it shows that the resulting good
is greater and more widespread than the retaliation. It explains the result in clear words and describes the real philosophy of
the law, that is, the life. It unambiguously shows by what means the desired result can be obtained: Obviously, it is the
retaliation that leads to life, and not the killing. (After all, many killings are done unjustly, and they do not lead to life, they are
negation of life.) The word, "retaliation," covers also other punishments besides killing, that is, the reprisal in the matter of
injury, etc. and such retributions too lead to the society's life. The word conveys another extra meaning, as it shows that the
retribution has resulted from unjust killing. (Compare it with their maxim, "Killing stamps out killing", which does not give any
idea that "killing" refers to any punishment.) Then there is an exhortation in this sentence, as it points to a life reserved for the
people, whom they are oblivious of; it behooves them to take hold of it as it really belongs to them; it is as if someone tells you:
There is a property belonging to you with so and so, or in such and such a place. Lastly, the opening word of the verse, that
is, "for you" makes it clear to the men of understanding that the law giver only desires to protect their interest, and no benefit
is ever to accrue to him.
These are a few of the fine points found in this verse. The scholars have mentioned some more points, which may be seen in
the books of rhetoric. The fact is, the more deeply you look at this verse, the more dazzled you shall be by its brilliance and
radiance; and the word of Allah is the highest.
Look at history, the law of Moses was quite clear and more stringent. An eye for an eye. Is this not the same as is repeated in
the Quranic verse you quote?? All the Quran does is to show you what the Law of Moses and the bible was and is still carried
but a touch of humanity was put in. This law was still repeated in the bible at the time of Jesus. It is at the time of Muhammad
PBUH, that the compensation of blood money was issued for murder. In essence the death penalty for murder was made more
humane in Islam with the inculcation of blood-money for the deceased family. Look at the verse as it ends “…this is an
alleviation from your Lord and a mercy…” Today, look at the Middle East, or wherever Islamic law is implemented as regards
the death penalty for murder and then compare that with the west. Can you tell me what are rates of homicide of each of these
regions compared to the other??? Do you want statistics?? A homicide every 3 hours in New York, a rape every 1.5 hours.
Both are punishable by death in Islamic law. This is just NY. I haven’t touched the whole of USA, Rio De Janiero or Jo’burg yet.
Deny that??? Why because in NY, a murderer can get away with murder 1 with a few years in prison and then the rest on
parole? So what the hell, just kill and let the legal system take care of me. There is no death penalty.
Yzv, your brother/father is innocently killed on the streets on NY, God forbid. The poor guy couldn’t defend himself and was
killed with no apparent reason. Probably he looked at someone in the eye as he walked past him. The guy just picked up a
knife and slit the poor guy’s throat. What would you demand?? Consequently, the court finds him guilty of murder, but
because he pleaded guilty, the defense attorney and the prosecution put the charge down to voluntary man slaughter. 3
years in a state penitentiary of which 1 and half years on parole. 3 years later the murderer of your brother/father walks
around, in your neighborhood, a free man. Maybe worse, the guy pleaded temporal insanity and was let to go Scott free with
60 hours community service. This is a farce. A miscarriage of justice and yet here you are trying to oppose the death penalty
as stipulated in Islamic law. Islamic law in this regard acts as a deterrent to such crimes.
In Saudi Arabia, where Islamic law is implemented for murder, their highest record of murder was 56 in a year. That is a
murder every 4 days. What wouldn’t you give to see such low crime rates in the West?? With all the braggadocio of
technological advancement and Nobel prizes, we have become scientists, but not yet humans. If anything, it is the laxity of
implementation of Islamic type law to deal with murder/rape. You will never feel the pinch nor appreciate the situation until one
of your close ones is directly affected then you will know what Islam offers. Trust me, when it hits you, you will be the first up in
arms asking for the death penalty to be implemented. Why?? Because it’s your own blood that was spilt. Think for once, like
the one violated.
Talk to me with facts Yzv, and after putting yourself in the same shoes as the one violated. Don’t just throw words at the Quran
akin to someone who has to take an extreme stance whatever the sense on other side of the argument. I am just referring to
your verse that you have quoted. Nothing more nothing less.
Yeezevee writes:
What is that GARBAGE?? , ....woman for woman?? What Nonsense is that? is that LAW OF EQUALITY?? what is this women
are piece of meat to exchange dear zuher ??
My Response:
You are asking me about women and how Islam treats them. My friend, you’re flying on the wrong tangent completely, if you
feel that Islam and the Quran belittles women. You haven’t raised any query on the issue of “free for free” or “slave for slave”.
This totally is in line with the Law of Moses/Jesus…an eye for an eye. It could have easily been boy for boy, cow for cow, goat
for goat, *** for *** or man for man. What is your issue about “woman for woman”? You practice it too every single day of your
life.
In fact Sina has said severally “he pays people in their own coin”. Is that not a perfect example of “an eye for an eye”? What
more summary of the same law do you need if it’s not from the originator of FFI himself?
I don’t know if you are quite aware of what you’re asking. Please be clear with your question so that I can know what you are
targeting. I would be more than happy to alleviate you of any pain as regards the Quran that you may have.
Yeezeve writes:
Quote:
002.191: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and
oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they
fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
002.192: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
064.014: O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware
of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
What oppression?, what slaughter? who fought who? and whose wives and whose children are (some that are) whose
enemies dear zuher ?
My Response:
I don’t think you have read my second post to Sina as regards the above verse. You are quoting completely out of context and
asking quite an iniquitous question. According to many scholars and from my logic, there are 5 verses revealed together and
this gives a clear explanation of the verses and its interpretation. I can very easily pick a single sentence from any of your post
and distort the meaning and its interpretation to suit my ends to the point that it actually means the complete opposite of what
you intended it to mean. So let’s look at this in a more scholarly manner rather than, as you put it, in “GARBAGE”
interpretation.
Quran 2: 190-195
And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you and do not exceed the limits. Verily, Allah loves not those who
exceed the limit. (190) And kill them wherever you find them and drive them out from whence they drove you out; and mischief
(disbelief) is more grievous than slaughter; and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you therein;
but if they do fight you than slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then verily Allah is
forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight with them until there is no (more) mischief (disbelief), and religion be only for Allah; but if
they desist then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. (193) The sacred month for the sacred month and
reprisal (is lawful) in all sacred things; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict the like aggression on him as he has
inflicted on you; and fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (194) And spend in the way of Allah
and cast not yourselves into perdition with your own hands; and do good; verily Allah loves those who do good. (195)
The context of the verses shows that they were revealed together. The whole talk has only one aim: permission, for the first
time, of fighting with the polytheists of Mecca. These verses refer to driving them out from whence they drove the believers
out, to disbelief and to reprisal; they prohibit fighting with them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight the believers in it. All
these matters were connected with the polytheists of Mecca. Also, the sentence: fight in the way of Allah with those who fight
with you, deserves more attention. It is not a condition, i.e., it does not mean, "fight with them if they fight with you". Nor is it a
restrictive clause (as some people think) meaning, "fight with the men, and not with their women and children who are not in a
position to fight with you", because nobody "fights" with those who are unable to fight back. Had it been the aim of the
sentence, it would have been proper to say "do not kill them". Therefore, the words those who fight with you only refer to a fact
fight those who are presently engaged in fighting against you. And it points to the polytheists of Mecca.
These five verses together promulgate a single law covering all its limits and details. And fight in the way of Allah is the basic
law; and do not exceed the limit puts disciplinary restriction on it; And kill them wherever you find them defines the limits of
pressure; and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you therein puts a restriction according to the
place; and fight with them until there is no more mischief (dis¬belief) shows its duration; The sacred month for the sacred
month, and reprisal (is lawful) in all sacred things explains that this legislation is based on the principle of retaliation in fighting
and killing, it is paying them in their own coin; And spend in the way of Allah makes the believers responsible for the financial
preparations for war: they must spend for their own preparation and for that of others. Therefore, it seems that all the five
verses were sent down together about one subject. It is wrong to say (as some have done) that some of these verses
abrogate the others; or that they were revealed separately on different occasions. In fact, the aim of all these verses is one:
permission to fight against the polytheists of Mecca who were fighting the believers.
I ask you yzv, in all your scholarly aptitude that you profess to have, do you not also fight against one who fights you. Do you
not also pay someone in his/their own coin? In fact you pay in more than your opponents’ coins. Then when you have nothing
more to pay you send them to your forum. Why then keep on contradicting yourself in manner that would create doubt as to
your aptitude. Shades of the typical Sina-syndrome.
Allah finished this talk on "doing good", and said: and do good; verily Allah loves the doers of good. Doing good does not
mean desisting from fighting, or clemency in killing the enemies of the religion etc. It means doing a wok in its proper way:
Fight when fighting is required; restrain yourselves when restraint is preferred; be strict where strictness is demanded by
reason, and forgive where forgiveness will not embolden the enemy. In short, repulsing the oppressor by the most reasonable
means is to do good for humanity, because this repulsion guarantees humanity its due right, and defends the religion which
would improve man's condition in both worlds.
After all this, yzv, what asininity has the Holy Quran implied in this verse by asking believers to fight in retaliation with those
who fight them? If you also believe and practice the same, and of course every self respecting person would too, why hold the
Quran responsible for misquoted and misinterpreted asininity, which in general life is actually a noble act?
As regards your query on Sura Taghabun, what’s the problem yzv?? Its simple. The verse merely stipulates that some wives
and children can lead the believers astray in doing the wrong thing. How many times have you heard of this where wives make
men co0mmit evil acts? In that sense do they not become enemies in faith. But the magnanimity of forgiveness is stressed by
Allah SWT. What’s wrong? I don not see what you are hinting at, at all.
Yeezevee writes:
History in connection with violent expansion of Islam
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 11&start=0
Right after a year his first Khadija died, Mr. Muhammad and his followers simply subjugated, butchered any one who didn't
believe in his stories.
Quote:
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of
Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet
In All those 13 years or so he lived after Khadija died, until he died, Mr. Muhammad and his followers has become was nothing
but war Machine. In those 13 years that fellow marries 13 young women and another 13 or so concubines, more than half of
them were half of his age, one was child and other was his adopted son's wife. The Guy was nothing but a warlord and Sex
Obsessed dirty old man. You have to realize Q'uran is book that was put together after his death in the times of Caliphas,
Specailly Abu Bakr and Umar Farooq., Both were younger than Muhammad and father in-laws of Muhammad. All those Voilent
verses in Q'uran in support of Muhammad and his followers came from him many others verses those writers of Q'uran
copy/pasted other religions of that time including from Muhammad's pagan ancestors. After his death., you have four
Caliphas. Two Father Inlaws and two Son In-laws.. Whole Goddamn Islam is nothing but clowns of Muhammad's Clan to start
with .. Even with in the Islam .. these Idiots take the Q'uranic verses like this one
Quote:
064.014: O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware
of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
.. Go on fighting forever. Fight with others and fight within Muslims...
See these wars with in Islam??... after his death they are nothing but Horrible infighting and killing each other., What God?
what Allah is that to make them fight with his/her/its preachings dear Zuher? .. Sure you know Shia/Sunni to start with .. Now
see these things at the same thread
Quote:
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan. Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
662: Khawarij revolts.
666: Raid of Sicily.
670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan
and withdraw to Burqa.
683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj
Rahat.
685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once
again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish
See those wars.. it is Just 70 years of Muhammad's Islam.. It is nothing but death and destruction of cultures that were around
Arabia and infights and killings between the Muslim Leaders..
Whole thing is rubbish dear Zuher., see this Nonsense..
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan. Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
Can you see this ISLAMIC GARBAGE wih in Islam?..It still continues to to thihs day..Islam became a a Perpetual war machinary
from STUPID BOOK..
But as you are complaing that no one is discussing with you "ON Q'uran Alone" at FFI.. Please go through that Q'uranic
thread.. we BOTH TOGETHER ..will read each and every Surah ..all 114 chapters., and I am sure by the time you come to the
end of 114, you will realize that book is just book put together along with some Muhammad's Rubbish.. So don't say this
Quote:
Pray tell, kind sir
My Response:
As regards your query on the violent History of Islamic expansion, that is a very crude misconception if I ever heard of one. Is
this what you call an argument or a challenge? This is not even a rudimentary point you have made of any substantive IQ. All
you have done is mention the names of conquests and held them completely as war to spread Islam and gain booty. That is
quite unscholarly. Do you even know the back and forth, head or tail of these conquests? Do you know what the predisposing
circumstances were? That is an inane judgement you have just made typical of Sina-type sweeping generalizations. However, I
will only handle history of Islam once you have exhausted everything you had to ask on Quran. I am sure you have a lot to
ask. So let’s move step by step and not mix issues. This is for the benefit of all those following and not just you and me.
Yeezevee writes:
and don't get disappointed.. Please continue to write and educate the folk the way you understand Q'uran..
My Response:
My friend, gauge from my talk and tell me who is heading for disappointment. Pray tell, kind sir.
I refer Quran 17:81, Truth is here and falsehood shall perish, for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.
Yeezevee writes:
with best regards
yeezevee
My Response:
With duas,
Zuher
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| DEBATE: Zuher VS Yeezevee (FFI Member) |
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