| Answering FaithFreedom.org |
| DEBATE: Suhail Khalid VS Iandonlyi (FFI Member) |
The topic of debate is Quranic Chapter 48 "The Victory" verse # 29. Please find below the verse:
"Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst
each other." (Quran 48:29)
This debate is also available on the forum at this location.
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iandonlyi posted:
Hello All,
I am IandonlyI and a member of FFI.
Yes FFI is down for few days and so I just figured I visit here. Anyway, my views are not same as Ali Sina's and I do not think or
hope of eradicating a religion neighter am I going to insult your religion.
But you muslims do need to grow up. It is about time that you guys start respecting other faiths. It is about time you guys
become more tolerant and it is about time you stop concentrating on *** up verses in Koran(and this kind of *** up verses exist
in all religions so you need not feel bad) but this needs to stop.
Untill the last ones of you believe that whole world should convert to Islam you will have problems in the world. Islam is great
but other religions are as great.
As long as you respect me I will respect you but I do feel that my beliefs are under attack along with millions around the world
by Islam? Can you see why we feel that way? Karma says "what goes around comes around" so if you want to have more
problems for yourself then continue or change for good and let us all live in peace.
My Response:
Yes FFI is down for few days and so I just figured I visit here.
You are welcome. Do not fear of getting banned or deletion of your posts over here. You can freely share your views.
However; at least you have to mind your language. Foul language is not acceptable on this forum. Therefore, do not deem
censoring your foul speech falls under the notion of suppression of freedom of speech.
Anyway, my views are not same as Ali Sina's
At least your language is the same. We could easily feel the essence of your mentor in your language.
I do not think or hope of eradicating a religion
Thank you very much. There are more people joining the fold of Islam compared to the negligible amount leaving it.
Therefore, we are not worried actually. We are not after EX-MUSLIMS; but after those Muslims who are getting confounded by
the falsehood preach by FFI.
neighter am I going to insult your religion.
Oh! Thanks again. But wait a minute! you said that you are not going to insult our religion. Let's read further.
It is about time you guys become more tolerant and it is about time you stop concentrating on *** up verses in Koran(and this
kind of *** up verses exist in all religions so you need not feel bad) but this needs to stop.
Oh! No insult whatsoever. Such statements really depict the debauched bring up of a person. What else could we expect from
the disciples of Ali Sina beside using foul language? I wonder if such people ever revere their own family members and
associates. IanonlyI, you made certain statements; however, where are your evidences? Where are those verses which really
keeping you awake at night?
As long as you respect me I will respect you
Yes sure. Let me call you 'my brother' and I dearly mean it. I assure you that no Muslim on this particular forum will ever use
foul language against you, your religion and your religious associates. If some one will use it then he would be dealt strictly.
We are people from Islam and our religion strictly prohibits us using such language. You give a stinky perspective of your
personality when you use such speech.
You asked for respect brother. However, you tell me how are we going to revere you when you used foul language in your first
post? What kind of logic is this? Can you please explain? You are asking for respect in return and at the same time you
mocked our religion. Only insane person can respect you in favor of your demeanor. Isn't it?
but I do feel that my beliefs are under attack along with millions around the world by Islam?
Therefore, you deem that tit-for-tat is the solution. That is the reason you support FFI who also on other hand insults your
religion. Why don't you strive in safeguarding your religion from us? Or you do not have any logical grounds to defend your
faith? We Muslims also feel that our beliefs are under attack along with millions around the world by polemics and people like
you. However, we are defending it in a ways that are most gracious and wonderful and we have solid grounds to defend with.
So why do you think that you are the only left-out?
Karma says "what goes around comes around"
Please remember this Karma brother.
iandonlyi posted:
First of all, I do not know what I said was really bad?
Saying "Muslims need to grow up" is same thing as insulting Islam? Does Islam = Muslims? Can Muslims really swear by it?
Then it means there is no bad muslim outthere and if there are bad muslims then Islam is bad. Is that what you guys are
saying. Are you that insecure?
One poster here says that I am member of FFI and I say I respect religion? Well you can go there and look up on my ID(I have
same ID there) see if I have insulted your prophet or Koran. I do think however that Muslims are nuts.
It is time Muslims wake up because you will see when you open your eyes that we are far far away from 14th century. I
honestly do not know and do not care of what is the problem of muslims, all I care about is that Muslims become little tolerant.
The problem part is for muslims to figure out not me. And if I was to think, I think that is because you guys follow everything
word to word. I even said all religions have some BS like that more or less. So what insult did I throw at you?
I came here for pe@ce and I just wanted you to see that other people are willing to walk two steps if you could take one. But
you failed big time. And this referee (or whoever) is threatening me? LOL, you really think I care to be here?
You know what? There is no point of debate with Muslims untill you morons grow up. GO ahead do your Jihad and more you
push people the more people are going to explode and the result will be explosions of Iraq and Afghanistan and terrorism
throughout the world. Go ahead if you think that is the right thing to do. Freakin idiots. Go ahead behead me because I have a
family who I support. I bet that is the right thing to do right?
If I am allowed I will come back here or who cares? I actually took from another poster I was arguing there and I was starting to
believe that is Koran is junk and all that but now I know that nothing is wrong with religions but just people. And out of all
people Muslims suck.
I thought I would be one person whose heart Muslims would win.
My Response:
First of all, I do not know what I said was really bad?
Brother! First of all you need to educate us apropos your understanding of good & bad. It seems we have two dissimilar
comprehensions of generic terms 'good' & 'bad'. Ringing bells in your head! Revert to your first post and look for this "***". In
gentleman's lingo this is called bad. Category of gentlemen does not include Ali Sina and his clowns. What else do you label
it? Or may be your astuteness of distinguishing 'good' & 'bad' is taken away by the sermons of Ali Sina. Stop listening to him.
You definitely reveal the essence of your mentor in your speech. If you fail to recall what you had written then allow me to
email you the word that you used twice for Koran and then for every other religion in the world (including your own religion
yuck! ). We Muslims do not talk like this. May be this is part of your bring up; however, brother this is really showing how
debauched it would be.
Saying "Muslims need to grow up" is same thing as insulting Islam? Does Islam = Muslims? Can Muslims really swear by it?
Then it means there is no bad muslim outthere and if there are bad muslims then Islam is bad. Is that what you guys are
saying. Are you that insecure?
Again brother! I am seriously thinking that you have ever attended any school. Do you know the difference between 'insult' &
'foul speech’? Their meanings are miles apart and they are like chalk and cheese. We can bear the insult; however, we are
not going to tolerate 'foul speech'. Just imagine if I use the same word "***" for your mother or sister. How do you feel then?
Please do not portray yourself as a stinky personality because that would only make your roots notorious.
One poster here says that I am member of FFI and I say I respect religion? Well you can go there and look up on my ID(I have
same ID there) see if I have insulted your prophet or Koran. I do think however that Muslims are nuts.
Again the same rantings as like everyone on FFI forum. Allegations; devoid of Evidences. Muslims are nuts; but why? Because
IandonlyI says so? Brother IandonlyI, can you please provide proofs of your allegation as to why Muslims are nuts. If you
cannot or if we refute them; then are you ready to be labeled yourself as 'nuts'?
It is time Muslims wake up because you will see when you open your eyes that we are far far away from 14th century. I
honestly do not know and do not care of what is the problem of muslims, all I care about is that Muslims become little tolerant.
Brother IandonlyI, Again, I urge you to go back to your post and check out your greetings. You triggered our intolerance. Now,
do you get the answer why Muslims get intolerant? Do you want me to trigger your intolerance by using the same word "***" for
your mother or sister? This is what people like you are doing around the world. You are triggering Muslims by hitting their holy
book and the loved ones. We do not welcome criticism the way you did in the first post. This is not criticism; this is foul
language and we do not hail it.
The problem part is for muslims to figure out not me. And if I was to think, I think that is because you guys follow everything
word to word. I even said all religions have some BS like that more or less. So what insult did I throw at you?
Do you know the fallacy of your argument brother. You cannot apply such day-dreaming of yours in many of the organizations
in the world. Let's take an example of Army. If soldiers do not obey the commandments of their superiors 'word by word', they
will not prevail in the war. Isn't it? Now it depends solely on the nature of the commandments. Some commandments are evil in
nature as it seems your religion is part of it when you said all religions have some 'BS' more or less. Our commandment "The
Holy Quran" is not at all towards malevolence as portrayed by populace like Ali Sina and his disciples; because we are
defending it. On the other hand you are proving your religion as wicked by your admission ('BS') and by not defending it.
I came here for pe@ce and I just wanted you to see that other people are willing to walk two steps if you could take one. But
you failed big time.
Brother IandonlyI! Again, I urge you to go back to your first post and look for yourself the way you greeted. Was that a great
impression you left with your post? Imagine myself arriving at your place and greet you with "***" these words and ask you to
have a breakfast with me or go for a walk may be? Do you seriously going to accompany me? Please brother apply your
intellects before you write anything. They way you speak not only present your stinky personality; but on the other hand reveal
your roots as debased. Do not talk like Ali Sina and be yourself.
And this referee (or whoever) is threatening me? LOL, you really think I care to be here?
Settle this with him.
You know what? There is no point of debate with Muslims untill you morons grow up.
Muslim brothers! I am sick of these statements. Whenever you try to debate with these dumb-witted disciples of Ali Sina, they
always come up with this same excuse whenever you corner them. This is the same excuse given to me by yeezeevee,
Sanitarium and others on FFI. Come on brother IandonlyI, these are all excuses which are only showing you as 'preschooler'.
This is the nice way to go around and avoid discussions. Aren't you man enough to utter straight that I cannot debate with
you, without engendering any excuses? Or you do not have an ability to corner us on any issue? If you seriously think that we
are erroneous on our beliefs than why don't you corner us?
Alright, we will make this one-to-one? What do you say? I am the only Muslim moron grown up in this forum. What do you say
now?
I will ask the admin of this forum to provide us with a separate forum where only two of us can write and the world could see
only? What do you say now?
If you do not like me then I have many other Muslim brothers as well? You choose your own opponent. What do you say now?
See I have cornered you now. DEEM MILLION TIMES BEFORE YOU ANSWER OR THIS WILL GO AGAINST YOU.
GO ahead do your Jihad and more you push people the more people are going to explode and the result will be explosions of
Iraq and Afghanistan and terrorism throughout the world. Go ahead if you think that is the right thing to do. Freakin idiots.
Brother! Open the lid of your head and let the air come in. Cool down brother! Do not make such statements that only show
you stupid in the result. Did any one tell you that it is America in Muslim countries and not the other way around? If ONE rebel
beheaded ONE westerner then there was an outcry in the whole world; on the other hand world completely forgot the fire by
American troops which killed hundreds of civilians. If ONE group beheaded ONE westerner then there was an outcry in the
whole world; on the other hand world completely forgot the atrocities done by American forces in Abu-Ghraib and illegally
originated Guantanamo Bay. Brother IandonlyI, do not let the politics in our discussion. I can prove you that there are more
people killed by George Bush as compared to Osama; therefore, Bush is a greater terrorist. I can also prove to you that
Osama is only wanted in two cases; and these cases are remembered by only few percentage of people and as for the rest of
'Big Cases' HE IS ONLY A SUSPECT. And suspect means that he is not guilty of charges and THERE ARE NO EVIDENCES
LINKED TO HIM. :D
You are not going to win this battle as well and in the end world will see your nose getting rubbed on the ground. Therefore,
squeezed the discussion to Quran only. Let's discuss it! If you are man enough!
Go ahead behead me because I have a family who I support. I bet that is the right thing to do right?
Brother IandonlyI, leave this topic for some other time. I do not want to nail you down on this topic right now. Let's discuss
Quran first.
If I am allowed I will come back here or who cares?
You are always welcome. Brother! Do not get fear of getting banned or deletion of your posts over here. We are not like FFI.
However, we are only going to censor foul speech. For the definition of foul speech, you can refer to your first post where you
stick a certain word to 'Koran". We are not going to accept such language on this forum. Let Ali Sina's forum be dedicated for
such games. You can freely enjoy this kind of speech on his forum and contaminate it. But please not on this forum.
I actually took from another poster I was arguing there and I was starting to believe that is Koran is junk and all that but now I
know that nothing is wrong with religions but just people. And out of all people Muslims suck.
Again! Rantings rantings; devoid of evidences. Bring proofs of your belief. Show me that Quran is more 'junky' then your own
belief. Well you have already substantiated evidently in your first post that how 'junky' you actually are. Second post just
confirmed my belief. I gave you my evidences of you being 'junky' by nature. Let me see your evidences that Quran is 'junky'.
A person who talks big without proof is called a lunatic. This is what you have proved to me. At least, be a little different from
your mentor Ali Sina. Bring PROOFS !!!!
I thought I would be one person whose heart Muslims would win.
Go back to your first post again and sit down with a gentleman and ask him if your post is going to win Muslim hearts. Let us
know what he replies. Mind it! Ali Sina and his clowns does not fit in the category of gentlemen.
People usually say 'Hi', 'Hello' or 'Assalamu Alaikum' for the first good impression. Look what you had written in your first post
that actually required to be censored. And you seriously think you are going to win Muslim hearts.
Imagine myself going to your home and greet your mother or sister with this foul word "***" and, in turn, ask you to be my
friend. What do you think of me at that moment? Brother! This is stupidity and nothing at all. If you eat 'junky' food your
stomach become 'junky'; and if you read 'junky' stuff then your mind becomes 'junky'. This is what actually happened to you.
FFI has brain washed you so much with hatred, foul language and insults that you have already lost the wits of distinction
between 'good' and 'bad'.
Well you have a chance again. You can start over again. We will welcome again with a smile you if you are willing to take your
words back.
iandonlyi posted:
To all, especially, Suhail Khalid and BMZ.
Okay fine, truth is truth, so I do admit that I cursed in my first post. Hey in normal world people talk like that and I do too. So
you need not take such a big offence to it. But if it did, I apologize.
About my religion, I honestly am not a great believer. But I do believe in good parts out of eastern religions. Sikhism, Hinduism
and Buddhism. So let's just leave it there. And please do not try to influence me to convert, ever, because it is never going to
work. If you still like to you can challenge yourselves.
BMZ thanks man. Yea it is nice to see old neighbors here too. Dont worry these muslims here accuse me of being a disciple of
Sina but I am not, I have my own brain.
About the verses of Koran that muslims are asking me to bring, I diddnt even think it was necessary for me to bring any but
now that you asked let me look them up and I will bring. But there goes your belief that Islam is the greatest and no mistake
could've ever crept in it. Where will we ever see a Muslim who can stand up and say, you know what, I dont know how but this
verse does not make sense or this is wrong etc. When will you learn to question your own belief? I am not one to ask you to
denounce Islam but can you atleast question what is bad there? But then you just dont think there is anything bad so no point.
Here, let's see. In Hinduism there is caste system and you know what I tell any Hindu that these verses of caste system are BS
and they admit it. Can we see the same from Muslims? But I guess I have to bring verses. I will be back. Buet let's say that
even if these verses are bad but just misinterpreted then too there is a problem because so long as these verses with double
meanings exist there is a chance someone will suffer.
My Response:
Okay fine, truth is truth, so I do admit that I cursed in my first post. Hey in normal world people talk like that and I do too. So
you need not take such a big offence to it. But if it did, I apologize.
Alright brother! As far as I am concerned I have accepted your apology. Secondly, what you are labeling as normal is not
actually normal; but this is termed as abnormality. Speaking in such a sway depicts the sickness of mind. I dare you, if you
speak in such a way in front of your family members. I believe you do not; then it means it is not normal. Your family is a
normal world to you. Thirdly, it does not give a good perspective of a personality if such a person speaks this way. Fourthly,
you do not speak like this with strangers; otherwise, expect a punch from them. Again this is not normal. Last but not the least,
you do not use such words when it comes to religious matters. The same matter we are discussing over here. People loose
credibility if they speak like this.
About my religion, I honestly am not a great believer. But I do believe in good parts out of eastern religions. Sikhism, Hinduism
and Buddhism.
Again brother! this is absurdity. You ought to believe in one religion or be an atheist. If you are clinging to only good parts of
one religion then it means other people can stick to the bad parts. It also means Javed Iqbal, Hitler, Jim Jones and David
Koresh could easily justify their actions from their holy books. This is false analogy. Almost every religion claims its book to be
divine. God doesn't speak bad and this is against His characteristics. If the people of the book are not able to defend their bad
parts then it surely means their book is not divine. However, this is not the case with Islam. We claim Holy Quran to be the
word of God and we are defending it from people like Ali Sina.
And please do not try to influence me to convert, ever, because it is never going to work. If you still like to you can challenge
yourselves.
Why would we try to convert you? This not in our hands brother. Our duty is to convey the message. Afterwards, this is your
intellect to judge the message. God will not ask us that how many people have we converted. But the question will be that if we
have conveyed the message correctly. We are only 'messengers' and not 'converters'. I believe you have understood.
Dont worry these muslims here accuse me of being a disciple of Sina but I am not, I have my own brain.
Alright brother! Naming you a disciple of Ali Sina was only a retaliation towards your first post. The reason was that almost
every FFI clown give references to Ali Sina's interpretations when ever they argue. Therefore I termed them as disciples of Ali
Sina. You said you have a brain, please use it in deriving acceptable logics. I apologize that you have felt bad. Sometimes you
have to be little harsh with people and this is only for their betterment. Please recall that I have called you my brother and I
have meant it.
About the verses of Koran that muslims are asking me to bring, I diddnt even think it was necessary for me to bring any but
now that you asked let me look them up and I will bring.
Why did you think it was not necessary to bring Quranic verses? You laid allegations against Quran without bringing the
evidence. What kind of logic is this? You do not really have to work hard in finding the verses. Just visit the website of Ali Sina
and you will hit upon ample of them alongside his 'scholarly' interpretations. Just bring them one-by-one. We have tried our
level best to refute Ali Sina's allegations on his forum; but some of us were banned and some of the posts were deleted. In my
case I challenged them; however no one showed up. These are the practices of people who stand on shaky ground of faith
when they do not stumble upon something concrete to defend their allegations they do cheap acts. Such were doubts for Ali
Sina and such were proven by him.
But there goes your belief that Islam is the greatest and no mistake could've ever crept in it. Where will we ever see a Muslim
who can stand up and say, you know what, I dont know how but this verse does not make sense or this is wrong etc. When will
you learn to question your own belief? I am not one to ask you to denounce Islam but can you atleast question what is bad
there? But then you just dont think there is anything bad so no point.
Yes! We do believe that Islam is the greatest religion on earth and no mistake could ever crept in it. We have struggled so
hard to find a single discrepancy or error in Quran; but all in vain. Why do you want us to find errors in Quran. This is your job
to find. And we are here to clarify those doubts of yours. And we are questioning you to show us the bad parts. People like Ali
Sina tried; however they have failed miserably. You try your luck. You deem that Muslim mind is not equipped with enough
rationality to think deep and his brain tends to accept everything true; then corner us. Make us speechless. We have given
you all our 'ammunition' and we have 'disclosed' all our 'secrets' to you. Now, the ball is in your court. Bring your contentions if
you think you are truthful. Call in your 'scholars' to help you with. I will call my Allah to help me.
Here, let's see. In Hinduism there is caste system and you know what I tell any Hindu that these verses of caste system are BS
and they admit it. Can we see the same from Muslims?
First of all you have be clarified on a notion that the God's word should not contain any error. If God's word is fallible then it
means He is imperfect. God can never be fallible as this is against His characteristic. There is no point in following a fallible
doctrine. If such Hindus are still following their religion portraying themselves as 'picky' in following certain parts of their
religion; then it means their religion is not of divine origin. However, this is not the case with Quran as every word of it is from
God. I am not going to follow the followers; however I am going to follow the doctrine. This is logical because followers do not
portray the true picture of their religion. I want documented proofs and not what followers run after.
But I guess I have to bring verses. I will be back. Buet let's say that even if these verses are bad but just misinterpreted then
too there is a problem because so long as these verses with double meanings exist there is a chance someone will suffer.
Brother IandonlyI! This is the most difficult task that you have to go through with. You have to be very careful in choosing the
format in which you are going to interpret the verses. You have to answer some questions of mine before we proceed further
in explaining those verses:
1) What evidence would your churn out in your explanation that these verses are interpreted correctly?
2) We are not going to accept any interpretation from pathetic 'Scholar' like Ali Sina and his clowns? Ali Sina is no scholar of
Islam. He does not even know Arabic. He is the worst in the pack of other critics of Islam when it comes to the science of
interpretation. We doubt that he has ever been to any school. For a glimpse of how Ali Sina does interpretation; please visit
the following link and go through some of the verses I posted there WITH EVIDENCE.
3) I will bequeath you with the interpretations of Islamic Scholars, references from authentic books and logical explanations.
Are you going to accept them as my evidences? If not, then again you have to bring your evidences in denial. You have to
quote a renown Scholar of Islam or a book as your evidence in denial of my proofs.
Lastly, I welcome you brother in discussing Islamic matters with us. Waiting anxiously for your reply.
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail Khalid,
I have found you to be the most rational on this site so I will only be discussing with you. I am not here for one upping,
paybacks, revenge, mud slinging, wasting my time etc. so I will not bother responding to others on the site.
Also, you rightly say that you dont use the bad words in front of family!!!! You are right I dont and will not ever. But I do talk
like taht with friends. Whatever it is bad words shall not enter our discussion going forward. Promise. Let's put that behind.
Also, I already told you what religion I follow and I am not ashamed of whatever I do or whatever I am. But I hope giving you my
total profile of my myself, parents, country etc. is not necessary for us to continue. Dont feel safe on internet. Maybe someday
we could be good brothers and close in relation and we can exchange personal information. I only ask because some others
on the site wanted me to disclose some/all that.
Now before I post the verse I want to start with can you please tell me what exaclty does Kafir mean? Because I dont want any
misunderstandings after I post the verse.
Also, now that I consider you a scholar of Islam please dont give me false information, I mean give me exactly what Islam says.
Sorry dude, I am putting too much pressure on you but reading your language I have no doubt that you are scholar already.
ALso, do you mind if I make our discussion public? I mean I dont want to go behind your back but I just want to let you know
beforehand that whatever the case I will give this discussion as a link to haters and non haters as I feel. If that is not OK, it I
wont. Let me know.
R,
IandonlyI.
Suhail Khalid,
Sorry dude I totally missed your questions.
1) Fair enough, we wont use Ali Sina's interpretations. ALso, hey man just because I used to be at FFI forum does not mean
Ali Sina has trained me or LOL.
WHy are my responses being trimmed? I said nothing bad, no foul language or nothing.
Anyway Suhail Khalid, We dont have to use ALi SIna's interpretation and yes you can bring in anyone but as long as his/her
interpretation does not sound irrational & Illogical. I mean I dont like when it is sunlight outside and people like to make you
believe that it is night right now, that kind of reference is not acceptable.
My Response:
I have found you to be the most rational on this site so I will only be discussing with you. I am not here for one upping,
paybacks, revenge, mud slinging, wasting my time etc. so I will not bother responding to others on the site.
Let me correct you again my brother. I am not the most rational; however, I am the least. This statement is definitely not out of
humbleness; but this is the truth. For what I was a year back and what I am now; there was a revolution in me. Let's leave it for
future conversation.
I have already given you a choice to pick your opponent. However, if you would like to discuss with me then you are most
welcome. Remember, I had put forth a proposition in front of you that I would ask admin to create a separate forum for
debaters, where only we can write and world could read. Do you like this idea?
Also, you rightly say that you dont use the bad words in front of family!!!! You are right I dont and will not ever. But I do talk
like taht with friends. Whatever it is bad words shall not enter our discussion going forward. Promise. Let's put that behind.
Alright! I can also correct you over here again :D ; however, I am sticking to your proposition. Let's put that behind.
Also, I already told you what religion I follow and I am not ashamed of whatever I do or whatever I am.
No brother! You did not tell me about your religion. What I perceived from your statements is that you are not following a
religion; but a hodgepodge. Some thing from here and some thing from there. Religions have names. Give me the name or be
an atheist.
But I hope giving you my total profile of my myself, parents, country etc. is not necessary for us to continue. Dont feel safe on
internet. Maybe someday we could be good brothers and close in relation and we can exchange personal information. I only
ask because some others on the site wanted me to disclose some/all that.
Brother IandonlyI! You have a full right to conceal your identity and no one can force you to disclose it. This is out of logical
grounds. Let me bring a little smile on your face; as you must be aware Ali Sina has renewed his challenge and over there he
writes that he is not going to debate with 'ANONYMOUS' Muslims; but with only renowned Scholars of Islam and they have to
be very famous. Brother! Did you smile :)? 'ANONYMOUS' Ali Sina does not want to debate with 'ANONYMOUS' Muslims. Isn't it
illogical? You ought to smile brother. This is the same excuse he presented to our learned brother zuher during the debate; in
order to stop the debate. I will let you know when this debate is available on my website. It is a must read.
As per personal conversation with me brother; you are more than welcome :).
Now before I post the verse I want to start with can you please tell me what exaclty does Kafir mean? Because I dont want any
misunderstandings after I post the verse.
"Kafir", verb "kufr".... disbelief and abject opposition to Allah SWT and/or His signs. This is the definition of the word itself. If I
speak from your mouth; I am a kafir to you. As for christian; I am a kafir to him. As for Jews; I am a kafir to him as well. For Arab
Christians and Jews; I am a kafir to them. AND FOR EVERY RELIGION IN THIS WORLD I AM A KAFIR TO THEM. I reject their
religious doctrine and do not believe in their gods; then I am a kafir for them. Disbeliever in English; Kafir in Arabic. If some
one feels offended by this term then let him produce some other word from Arabic language.
Also, now that I consider you a scholar of Islam please dont give me false information, I mean give me exactly what Islam says.
Sorry dude, I am putting too much pressure on you but reading your language I have no doubt that you are scholar already.
Please Brother IandonlyI, I never claimed to be a scholar of Islam. I said that I would 'quote' you from the Scholars of Islam. Let
me give you a shock brother! I am the least of most knowledgeable persons on this forum. I am aware that there are only few
of them. I am not speaking out of humbleness or else I would have said that "I am the least of least knowledgeable persons on
this forum". This is not my language and this is not how I talk. I talk straight. I am not like Ali Sina who butter up his goons and
clowns on his forum and make them higher than him; Ali Sina is much better than them and he is also an expert in taming his
jokers.
I am not a scholar of Islam; not even a full-fledged student; but a beginner. However, I strive for seeking truth. If you ask me
any question and if I am not aware of the answer; then I will definitely refer to my colleagues on this forum or anywhere else for
authentic answers. I am a man enough to utter straight that I do not know the answer. I do not accept answers without proofs,
evidences or acceptable logics. These are my criteria or you may call touchstones to judge the authenticity of any answer.
ALso, do you mind if I make our discussion public? I mean I dont want to go behind your back but I just want to let you know
beforehand that whatever the case I will give this discussion as a link to haters and non haters as I feel. If that is not OK, it I
wont. Let me know.
We are already in public. Ask your associates to come on this forum. Join it and have a discussion with us. I do not mind at all.
Spreading truth is my job and you are helping me in this task :).
Sorry dude I totally missed your questions.
1) Fair enough, we wont use Ali Sina's interpretations. ALso, hey man just because I used to be at FFI forum does not mean
Ali Sina has trained me or LOL.
It's ok! As I have said before that Ali Sina is the worst in the pack of critics when it comes to the science of interpretation of
holy scriptures.
Brother you tell me the truth now! Do not lie! Did you visit the link I provided in my last post. What do you feel of Ali Sina after
reading those interpretations? Don't you deem that he is dupe and childish in his approach? And he is lying to the world?
WHy are my responses being trimmed? I said nothing bad, no foul language or nothing.
Don't worry brother! This is only to make things easy for me to answer and for the readers to understand. I will not take your
words out of context, I promise. I will never misquote or mis present you. I am a Muslim and not Ali Sina. And such practices
are not allowed by my religion. See, this is the power of religion as it restricts you from doing bad deeds. People like Ali Sina
chose to rummage around like animals rather than following a discipline, they will never ever prevail.
Anyway Suhail Khalid, We dont have to use ALi SIna's interpretation and yes you can bring in anyone but as long as his/her
interpretation does not sound irrational & Illogical. I mean I dont like when it is sunlight outside and people like to make you
believe that it is night right now, that kind of reference is not acceptable.
Revert to my questions to you in my last post.
1. You have a liberty to discard my logics with your logics.
2. My evidences from Islam with your evidences from Islam.
3. My Scholars of Islam with your Scholars of Islam.
4. You also have a liberty not to accept my logics and vice versa.
5. However, denying proofs and evidences; hhhhmmmmm, would be very difficult for you. Ain't it ;).
Regarding your example of day and night; a perfect example befitting Ali Sina and his likes. I HAVE ALREADY PROVIDED
PROOFS AND NO ONE ON EARTH CAN DENY IT :).
By the way how old are you? I am 27. Waiting for your reply.
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail Khalid,
Man with your responses I now have no doubt that you are scholar and if not pretty close to being one.
Anyway, so now I understand the meaning of Kufr. Correct me if I am wrong. Kufr means nonbeliever. For a muslim non-
muslims are nonbelievers and for non-muslims muslims are. Good enough. I am going to start with one verse.
But let me clarify somethings first. Your question on whether I read the link you sent. Honestly I did not.
1) Ali Sina is not my concern, my concern is why is there ali sina. Ali Sina is the last person on my mind and let me repeat I am
not his follower. If I was I would've came here and said "Islam is this and that and Mohammed is this and that, etc." I did not.
2) Yes a one-on-one forum would be great.
3) And lastly yes something that is clear cut obviously I wont deny it. I also have a god that I answer to and I also have shame.
4) Lastly and most importantly I am only questioning islam as much as I question other religions. I am not here for offence
although I could get angry at times and go out of control. If you ever feel offended let me know and we stop right away.
However, I would like to bring that up that Muslims question their religion the least and even if Islam is perfect and I mean to
word to word, still questioning will not make it bad. However, I am no one to tell Muslims anything. It is your choice and it is your
religion. But I am debating because I believe some muslims(like OBL) are too stuck on certain verses of Koran which causes
some problems. Again Karma, why do something which will cause the other party to respond in kind and world actually does
work that way so why not just do things that are good so the whole world responds in kind and this case, respond with good. I
consider myself citizen of this world and I believe you and I are more important than religions. I am concerned about this world.
Do you not feel that WWIII is closer? I do. Man everyday there is something new, and that new is almost always bad.
How long will we live in this constantly inflammed hearts and minds?
The verse I would like to question is below. And yes you would want a reference and so I brought it from another site, not
Sina's. I just did a search on the web and found it. Here is the site and the verse.
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."Victory 48:29
http://amalid.com/Islam/
Suhail Khalid is this OK or I need to find it from a Islamic scholar? If it is not OK please let me know why. I mean what is wrong
with the verse?
The most important thing I would like you to concentrate on is, even if this has a good meaning do you think that some
followers of Islam might be misunderstood? And it might be causing some problems?
My Response:
Dear Brother IandonlyI,
I do like to apologize for a delayed response, as for the reason that I was busy with some of my commitments. Please be aware
that such delays can occur in our future discourses because of my job and probably you could also be engaged somewhere. If
there would be some long delays then we will remind each other by sending an email or a 'personal message'. If you are willing
to frame time duration between replies then we can mull over it with each of us' consents. Please let me know if you are
interested:
Back to our dialogue:
Man with your responses I now have no doubt that you are scholar and if not pretty close to being one.
Thank you :).
Anyway, so now I understand the meaning of Kufr. Correct me if I am wrong. Kufr means nonbeliever. For a muslim non-
muslims are nonbelievers and for non-muslims muslims are. Good enough. I am going to start with one verse.
No brother! You are again wrong. Kufr is the root verb of noun kafir. Kufr means nonbeliever! (WRONG). KAFIR means
nonbeliever! (RIGHT). Rest what you had inscribed is correct.
But let me clarify somethings first. Your question on whether I read the link you sent. Honestly I did not.
It's alright. I just wanted to give you a glimpse of how Ali Sina and his clowns interpret Quranic verses. Brother IandonlyI! Isn't
this notion illogical that people refer to a less qualified teacher for erudition of a certain subject; compared to a highly
educated teacher who is available and in their reach as well. Do you have any idea what is going to happen to your intellect if
you listen and obey such a less qualified teacher? Such a stupid teacher will make your mind wounded. He will make you a
menace to the society. He will injure your past, present and future and he will transform you into animal like Ali Sina. Where as,
a highly qualified teacher will remove your doubts and he will correct you. He will guide you to the correct path to think and to
follow. In case of Ali Sina he is not even qualified as this stupid fraud does not even know Arabic and we Muslims have our
serious doubts if he had ever attended any school in his life. Who gave him authority to go around doing his own perverted
interpretations of Quran?
Brother IandonlyI! If I need to learn or understand Hindu Holy Scriptures I will refer to the Scholar who is well-versed in Sanskrit
language. This is logical. I will never confer to twisted brains people like Ali Sina who are not even well-versed in their own
lingo. This would be pure injustice from my side. Isn't it? Therefore such people, as they do not have any authority to do
interpretations; similarly they cannot be quoted as Evidences as well. Remember this!
1) Ali Sina is not my concern, my concern is why is there ali sina. Ali Sina is the last person on my mind and let me repeat I am
not his follower. If I was I would've came here and said "Islam is this and that and Mohammed is this and that, etc." I did not.
Let Ali Sina be your concern brother. He is actually the one who incited you to search for truth and you learn about Islam. No
matter it was good or bad; however, you have tasted a flavor of Islam now. Now you have to do justice and listen to our story
as well. Ali Sina made Islam very famous on Internet. I salute him as he is the one who inspired me in writing in defense of
Islam.
Every time you bring any contention against Islam; we Muslims will make you speechless. You cannot corner us in any issue
on Islam and this is my challenge. As per the debates placed on Ali Sina's website; I allege all of them being tampered by Ali
Sina and his goons. I have more people alleging Ali Sina of being a fraud; let alone him being his own witness. If you want to
prove my allegation erroneous then you have a ground (forum) to come over and discuss. Let's talk together. I promise that
we will never ever ban you or delete your posts. Subsequently, we have even provided you a separate forum to discuss
matters without hindering the concentration; this feature is not available on FFI. What else do you want? You ask us we will
provide you. Come! Come! debate with us, either in public, audio or written. With all your mighty 'scholarly' aptitude against us
and our Allah.
Yes a one-on-one forum would be great.
We are already here now brother!
3) And lastly yes something that is clear cut obviously I wont deny it. I also have a god that I answer to and I also have shame.
Brother! Again your statements are confounding me. This 'God' of yours; to which religion does He belong? Religion stems
from God or gods. Therefore, if you have a God then you must have a name of your religion. And 'God' of any religion does
not do hodge-podge. Please clarify.
Lastly and most importantly I am only questioning islam as much as I question other religions. I am not here for offence
although I could get angry at times and go out of control. If you ever feel offended let me know and we stop right away.
Questioning is every one's right. Quran also gives us permission to question, then answer, then question again. This is called
reasoning.
Regarding, "offense", brother! We will not tolerate any foul speech against any person in the world. Let it be your associates
and religious personalities; we are not going to use "foul language" PERIOD!
Secondly, you must have perceived till now that how do I sound from my writings. A bit harsh or may be very harsh. However, I
have never used any foul language. You can use me as an example. Or any other brother/sister on this forum.
Similarly, you have a right to get angry and you can also get out of control; but please keep your tongue in a leash and foul
speech should not crept into the keyboard through your hands via your tongue :D.
However, I would like to bring that up that Muslims question their religion the least and even if Islam is perfect and I mean to
word to word, still questioning will not make it bad.
Yes brother! You are right. Muslims do question their religion the least because we do not have any questions to ask. It is you
people who think that Islam is evil and then questions rose up in your minds.
It is a huge surprise for me that people like you consult populace like Ali Sina and his goons/clowns for Islamic interpretations.
You people confer with Western Media for Islamic answers and clarifications. You uttered in your earlier post that Ali Sina
should be the last person on your mind. This is not true! Muslims were the last persons on your mind. Since, you have been
listening to Ali Sina's rants quite long; though, you accidentally dropped on our forum and you found me. Oh yes brother! You
made a statement in black and white in your first post that FFI was not accessible, therefore you thought of coming over here.
Meaning, that you have already traveled around the whole world and heed to every kind of yowling from non-Muslims Islam
haters and by the time you accidentally dropped in this forum you were already filled with extreme hatred. This was clearly
evident from your first post. Conclusion; Muslims were the last people in your mind. Therefore, it means that you have already
paid attention to Ali Sina's yapping and already made up your mind against Muslims and you just throw up whatever was filled
by FFI in your first post. And this was me who molded you a little and tried to wake up a little interest in you heart. And now we
are here.
This is what I analyzed from your first post, up till now. By God, I could go on and tell you many other things from your first
post; however I am keeping mum for now. Let us discuss the actual subject.
However, I am no one to tell Muslims anything. It is your choice and it is your religion. But I am debating because I believe
some muslims(like OBL) are too stuck on certain verses of Koran which causes some problems. Again Karma, why do
something which will cause the other party to respond in kind and world actually does work that way so why not just do things
that are good so the whole world responds in kind and this case, respond with good. I consider myself citizen of this world and
I believe you and I are more important than religions. I am concerned about this world. Do you not feel that WWIII is closer? I
do. Man everyday there is something new, and that new is almost always bad.
How long will we live in this constantly inflammed hearts and minds?
Brother! Regarding Osama Bin Laden and if he is a Muslim or not? It is another subject. Please do not deem that I am
avoiding answering you; but directing this way will make the actual subject go astray. Let's keep ourselves to Quran and we
will concentrate on other topics at the end of our discussion. Please confirm!
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YOU DO NOT REALLY NEED TO REPLY TO WHATEVER I HAVE WRITTEN ABOVE. WE CAN DISCUSS THIS AT THE END
OF OUR DISCUSSION. LET'S CONCENTRATE ON THE 'ROOT CAUSE OF ANARCHY IN THE WORLD'; THE HOLY QURAN
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The verse I would like to question is below. And yes you would want a reference and so I brought it from another site, not
Sina's. I just did a search on the web and found it. Here is the site and the verse.
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."Victory 48:29
http://amalid.com/Islam/
Suhail Khalid is this OK or I need to find it from a Islamic scholar? If it is not OK please let me know why. I mean what is wrong
with the verse?
My First Evidence:
Brother! As enlightened by other members of the forum the word "ruthless" used in this translation seems to be wrong. Please
provide your evidence by giving the name of the translator. Here I am giving you other translations from various different
translators.
Pickthall - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among
themselves.
Yusuf Ali - Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but)
compassionate amongst each other.
Hilali-Khan - Muhammad (SAW) is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and
merciful among themselves.
Shakir - Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate
among themselves
Sher Ali - Muhammad is the Messenger of ALLAH. And those who are with him are hard against the disbelievers but tender
among themselves.
Arberry – Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to
another.
Palmer – Mohammed is the Apostle of God, and those who are with Him are vehement against the misbelievers,-
compassionate amongst themselves;
Rodwell – Muhammad is the Apostle of God; and his comrades are vehement against the infidels, but full of tenderness
among themselves.
Sale - Mohammed [is] the apostle of God: And those who are with him are fierce against the unbelievers, [but] compassionate
towards one another.
The actual Arabic word used for 'ruthless' is 'ashidda' in the translation you afforded; and it is all-in-all wrong. The English
word 'ruthless' comes in the category of 'zulm' in Arabic which means 'cruelty', 'brutality', 'merciless'. However, translations that
I have presented above are widely used; some of them are famous and some of them are not. Some of them are Muslims and
some of them are not. Therefore, If you keep all of these translations into consideration then it is incorrect to translate the
Arabic word 'ashidda' as 'ruthless' as this is not the correct translation.
Now brother I have provided 9 well-known translations of the verse 48:29; and none of them has incorporated the word
"ruthless" in their translations. Now, you have to provide me the name of the translator who used this precise word in his
translation.
Brother! I am stopping here to give you some time to go through my evidence. I also have some more evidences to support
that this particular verse does not depicts towards cruelty or brutality; besides what I had churned out already. I will keep those
evidences for later discussion. Remember brother! I have provided you translations from non-Muslims translators as well. I am
still left with my evidences from:
1. Islamic Scholars
2. Authentic Books
3. Logic
However, I am not going to use these three options for now and shall keep them for later courses. I do not really want to
bombard you extraneously with all the matter I have. We will proceed step-by-step so that you can understand correctly. Here,
I am being very diverse from action plan of Ali Sina :).
After when you finish analyzing my evidence; please answer my following questions:
Q1) Do you agree to my evidence?
Q2) If not! then why?
Hoping to hear from you soon. Take Care
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail,
Not responding to most of the top part of your post I will get down to point. We shall discuss this later.
However, about time, we are not really waiting on anyone and we are debating at our own pace and time and so take your own
time. I am busy too and I might get delayed as well.
About Religion. Okay you can call my beliefs as hodge podge if you like, no problem. And I will not get offended at all. But
honestly speaking I do not really believe in religions. In God I trust big time. Let me know if you need me to define God as I
believe. However, there are good things that I have found in religions that I have picked up myself. I believe in eastern
religions because I find them very democratic while western, meaning, the one from middle east are all very non-democratic.
For example, Jewish man marries a non-jew then she has to convert etc. Now what happens is a Muslim girl wants to marry a
Jesih guy? Because at this point, her religion says that she can not marry non-muslim(correct me if I am wrong) while Jewish
religions says she has to convert, which is even a bigger crime in Islam. You see, so I find western religions as too imposing
and too controlling. That is not how a religion should be. That is wrong. Above was just an example.
Going back to verse.
I honestly do not know who wrote that verse and whose translation that is. But I do not see much difference between your
translation and the one I posted there except from "Harsh" "Hard" and "Ruthless". We can take the any of the word you posted
and replace ruthless with that.
My Response:
Dear Brother iandonlyi,
Hoping that you are in the best of your health. Thank you very much for your reply.
Not responding to most of the top part of your post I will get down to point. We shall discuss this later.
I respect that.
However, about time, we are not really waiting on anyone and we are debating at our own pace and time and so take your own
time. I am busy too and I might get delayed as well.
Sure! No problem at all from my side.
About Religion. Okay you can call my beliefs as hodge podge if you like, no problem. And I will not get offended at all. But
honestly speaking I do not really believe in religions. In God I trust big time. Let me know if you need me to define God as I
believe. However, there are good things that I have found in religions that I have picked up myself. I believe in eastern
religions because I find them very democratic while western, meaning, the one from middle east are all very non-democratic.
For example, Jewish man marries a non-jew then she has to convert etc. Now what happens is a Muslim girl wants to marry a
Jesih guy? Because at this point, her religion says that she can not marry non-muslim(correct me if I am wrong) while Jewish
religions says she has to convert, which is even a bigger crime in Islam. You see, so I find western religions as too imposing
and too controlling. That is not how a religion should be. That is wrong. Above was just an example.
I am skipping my reply for later discussion.
I honestly do not know who wrote that verse and whose translation that is.
It means that the translation is erroneous and some one mistranslated this precise verse in order to satisfy his warped
imaginations, with intent. May be the site (again anti-Islamic) from where you have picked up this verse, framed it to make it
anti-human intentionally? I am discarding the translation of this precise verse as authentic EVIDENCE from you due to lack of
bona fide support. Let's move on and discuss the acceptable translations of this verse.
But I do not see much difference between your translation and the one I posted there except from "Harsh" "Hard" and
"Ruthless".
Alright! It means that I can be flippant with words and can change/replace them to whatever suites me. It also means I can go
on and translate the verses of Bible or Hindu scriptures to my likes. It again means that I have an authority and I can vary the
intensity of verses by replacing their words anytime to suite my mood. Whereas, I am never an authority to such replacements
as I have no acquaintance of the languages. This is nothing but a mere fraud.
We can take the any of the word you posted and replace ruthless with that.
Brother! You left me with BIG dilemma to tackle with. Now, I have to confer with all the scholars of Arabic in order to appeal
them to ‘revolutionize’ the structure of Arabic Language. Afterwards, they need to edify all the Arabic speaking people in the
world about this modification. You asked for a revolution where un-intentionally you imagined that Arabic word for ‘strong’,
‘hard’, ‘harsh’ can be replaced with ‘ruthless’, straightforwardly. This is IMPOSSIBLE and in order to satisfy your request we
also need to change the word in the Holy Quran as well. Again I am stuck with double problems.
As I said before that the English word ‘ruthless’ falls in the category of ‘zulm’ in Arabic which means ‘cruelty’, ‘brutality’,
‘merciless’. Therefore, we need to replace the word ‘ashidda’ with some other word that fits in the category of ‘zulm’ in Arabic,
and there are many words. It seems like some how you didn’t pay attention to my reply in earlier post or otherwise you hadn’t
come up with what you wrote afterwards. Keeping your ‘idea of replacement’ into consideration, Muslims require replacing
the word in the Holy Quran and its translations as well. I believe you must be aware by now the disparity between English
translation and Arabic original.
Translations are not the true portrayal of the originals. They can come close to the originals in meanings; however can never
become the veritable copy of them. This is the case with almost every holy book present now.
Do not deem English as a stand-in of Arabic. There is not a sole holy book on the face of the earth which is inscribed in
English originally. Therefore, it is not necessary that synonyms are same in both the languages. English is no where close to
Hebrew, Greek or Arabic or it is ever been inspired by these languages. I hope you understood correctly.
Brother! I am again not presenting my other EVIDENCES to prove that this precise verse is not anti-human; until receiving
your chunk of acquiescence on what I presented above and in my earlier post. I would again like you to comment on my
Evidence; which you chose to skip in your last post. I am not aware why? If you do not accept my Evidence then please
inform me why?
Hoping to hear from you soon. Take Care.
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail Khalid wrote:
Alright! It means that I can be flippant with words and can change/replace them to whatever suites me. It also means I can go
on and translate the verses of Bible or Hindu scriptures to my likes. It again means that I have an authority and I can vary the
intensity of verses by replacing their words anytime to suite my mood. Whereas, I am never an authority to such replacements
as I have no acquaintance of the languages. This is nothing but a mere fraud.
Okay, I guess I need to become intense as now we are talking nitty gritties of religion. No I did not say that we can replace the
words when we like and anytime we like. What I said was that I do not find much difference between the translations you
presented and the one I presented, except for the word ruthless, which were presented by the Islamic scholars as hard, harsh,
etc. So I was only saying that we can replace the word "Ruthless" with hard, harsh or whatever you want to pick from the list
you presented and move on on the verse.
About replacing words from books on other religions, I dont think we are discussing other religions here, we are only
discussing Islam. Other religions and their followers have moved on mostly and the ones that are not are in process of moving.
So other religions do not really have problems. But the verses of Koran are misunderstood by Muslims themselves and that is
why we see so many problems. However, if it helps you present your case you can replace anything you want from any religion
in the world. Other religions and their verses are least of my worries. You will find big majority of followers of other religions
who will accept that "You know this verse in my own religion is false and it makes no sense" or at least the educated followers
of other religions say that. However, you being educated you do not find that any and I mean single verse in Koran could be
problamatic. And that is one reason we are debaing and the second reason is that I just want to show you that Islamic
terrorists are taking verses of Koran to do what they are doing. And some of the verses in Koran are surely problamatic in the
views of us non-muslims. However, since a educated you are claiming that there is not even a sinlge verse in Koran that is
problamatic then the burden of proof rides on your shoulder.
If you say just once that, Yes a verse in Koran is problamatic and should not be paid much attention to then I will leave and
debate is over. But you say otherwise so let's continue. Another reason why this debate would not exist is if Muslims were
living in the world peacefully like the rest of non-muslims or atleast not commit crimes quoting a religion and in name of
religion. If we were to point at a single reason why this debate, FFI etc. exists are Muslims have become very violent and show
no respect to the non-muslims.
Also, if you want I can bring in any verse and you present the "correct" translation and we can debate on that "correct"
translation. By paying much attention to who translated the verse and what was in his/her mind at that given point when he/she
wrote it we are goin off track from the point of the debate, which is to prove that there could be a single verse in Koran which is
problamatic and that could be causing some violence. Just so you know, the translations you presented made no difference to
my mind as compared to my translation to word ruthless. And no that is not due to any prejudice but it is due to the fact that it
still talks about some discrimination about treatment of non-muslims which is not acceptable to me and to any fair minded
person. And so this verse could be causing some violence. Unless you can provide a proof in that verse that clearly says that
muslims are equal to non-muslims and all should get same treatment I think that verse is wrong.
Let's see if you can provide proof or admit. I already know what your answer will be if you are truthfull or if you are going to
stand with your belief that there can be no single verse in Koran that could be problamatic.
My Response:
Dear Brother iandonlyi,
Hoping you are in the best of your health. Thank you for your reply.
Okay, I guess I need to become intense as now we are talking nitty gritties of religion. No I did not say that we can replace the
words when we like and anytime we like. What I said was that I do not find much difference between the translations you
presented and the one I presented, except for the word ruthless, which were presented by the Islamic scholars as hard, harsh,
etc. So I was only saying that we can replace the word "Ruthless" with hard, harsh or whatever you want to pick from the list
you presented and move on on the verse.
Again you are telling me the same old story that I had already retorted in my last two posts. The difference you do not find
between the translations except the word 'ruthless' can be replaced with hard, harsh or strong; is actually a valid disparity in
Arabic Language which you seemed to deny deliberately. In the world of rational thinking this is absurdity. You may not seem
to accept the structural categorization of Arabic language and perceiving the meanings with the scale of your own which in this
case is ‘English’. Meaning, again you are doing your own translations and interpretations. As I have said before twice and I am
saying again that 'ruthless' in Arabic Language falls under different category and it is no where depicts the notion you are
trying to impose forcefully. This particular verse is no where depicting Muslims as ruthless to non-believers; but they are hard
and stead fast against their demeanor towards Muslims and they are not wax that the non-believers may mold them as they
like; they can neither be cowed nor purchased by any inducement. If some one misunderstood this particular verse then it is
the problem of his intellect and not this verse is violent.
About replacing words from books on other religions, I dont think we are discussing other religions here, we are only
discussing Islam. Other religions and their followers have moved on mostly and the ones that are not are in process of moving.
So other religions do not really have problems. But the verses of Koran are misunderstood by Muslims themselves and that is
why we see so many problems. However, if it helps you present your case you can replace anything you want from any religion
in the world. Other religions and their verses are least of my worries. You will find big majority of followers of other religions
who will accept that "You know this verse in my own religion is false and it makes no sense" or at least the educated followers
of other religions say that. However, you being educated you do not find that any and I mean single verse in Koran could be
problamatic. And that is one reason we are debaing and the second reason is that I just want to show you that Islamic
terrorists are taking verses of Koran to do what they are doing. And some of the verses in Koran are surely problamatic in the
views of us non-muslims. However, since a educated you are claiming that there is not even a sinlge verse in Koran that is
problamatic then the burden of proof rides on your shoulder.
Regarding other religions; it was a generic reply towards your statement. For the same reason or otherwise I would have
quoted you something from other religions to prove my point. Therefore, I was not discussing other religions over here. You
misunderstood completely.
I am pretty much aware that people from other religions when locate bogus verses in their holy books and when they are not
able to defend them they just show their disbelief and move on. Every person in every religion is unique; whenever we try to
corner them using their own 'Holy Scriptures' they run away blabbering that "I do not believe in this" and "I do not believe in
that". I can put your good self as a perfect example befitting this. Afterwards, they deem that the same absurdity is present in
every religion on the face of the earth. However, as I have said before that Muslims do not believe their Quran to be fallible
and we do not really require to 'run away' from the truth as well. Therefore, why are you forcing us to believe in this kind of
absurdity? If you think that you have a tumor then why do you deem that Muslims must have the same?
If you say just once that, Yes a verse in Koran is problamatic and should not be paid much attention to then I will leave and
debate is over. But you say otherwise so let's continue. Another reason why this debate would not exist is if Muslims were
living in the world peacefully like the rest of non-muslims or atleast not commit crimes quoting a religion and in name of
religion. If we were to point at a single reason why this debate, FFI etc. exists are Muslims have become very violent and show
no respect to the non-muslims.
Regarding Muslims misunderstood some of the verses in Quran; Yes! I believe this. But it was foolish of you to measure more
than a billion Muslims into the same category as compared to few Muslims who misunderstood. If your brother is a menace to
society, will it be a justice from my side to paint whole family of yours as a danger? What will you do to your brother then? You
will expel him from your family if he is not willing to change and keep understanding the 'misunderstood'. It is your media who is
making such 'misunderstood' Muslims famous. It is again Western media who is clinging such 'misunderstood' Muslims to the
world of Islam. It is your problem that you heed to non-Muslims interpretation of Islamic Scriptures rather than listening to
authentic Scholars of Islam. It was made evident by your good self as well by location from where you had pulled out the verse
in question right now. There are two distinct groups at war in the world right now; one is lead by personal gain and other by
religion. If 1.5 billion Muslims were to adhere to 'True Islamic interpretations' of clowns like Ali Sina, then brother it is impossible
that you could still be living. We could have killed you long before and could have easily justified our actions from our Holy
Books. What ever some 'misunderstood' Muslims are doing in the world is wrong and their actions do not reflect the real Islam
that we have been taught. Whatever Hitler did; I cannot label Christianity as a barbaric religion. Same thing applies to Islam as
well. I cannot label Islam as a ruthless faith because 'Javed Iqbal' killed 100 children, ate them and put their remains in an acid.
I cannot label Judaism a merciless religion because Menachem Begin had blood of scores of innocent people on his collar. I
cannot label Hinduism a pitiless religion because hindus killed Muslims in Gujrat. This is wrong and illogical. Therefore you do
not judge faiths by deeds of some people; look at their scriptures of what actually they preach. Look at the roots and not the
branches. Even branches can become stale while the root is intact. Similarly, same decree fix to George Bush and Osama Bin
Laden as well. You give us examples of some 'misunderstood' Muslims and they automatically reform into 'ALL MUSLIMS' by
western media. Muslims are not angels, we are humans. Humans just like you. We have bad people and good people in our
community. However, if some one is willing to reveal BAD people only and they have good means to do it (media), then we
cannot do anything about it. And yes! Burden of proof is on us and no where in my posts I have denied accepting this
responsibility. At least I was asking from you to think deeper and concentrate on my evidence; which I seemed you have
misconstrued completely. It seems to me that you lack apt intellect in understanding technicalities of languages; therefore,
from now onwards I will just keep you on the surface of understanding.
Let's get back to our discussion:
The name of the chapter 48 is "The Victory" and there are only 29 verses in it. The whole chapter is about glad tiding from
Allah to his Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) regarding an upcoming victory over disbelievers of Makkah. If you read
the whole chapter in context and look at the verse 48:25 it says:
"They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Sacred Mosque and the sacrificial animals, detained
from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye
were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, ((Allah) would have
allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been
apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment." (Quran 48:25)
In this precise verse Allah has defined disbelievers; as they were the ones who started their atrocities towards Muslims and
they were the ones who held up Muslims to visit the Holy Mosque. Read the next verse:
“While the Unbelievers got up in their hearts heat and cant - the heat and cant of ignorance,- Allah sent down His Tranquillity
to his Messenger and to the Believers, and made them stick close to the command of self-restraint; and well were they entitled
to it and worthy of it. And Allah has full knowledge of all things.” (Quran 48:26)
Again this particular verse describing characteristics of unbelievers of their over-all attitude towards Muslims (got up in their
hearts heat), where as on the other hand Allah has ordained Muslims to remain calm (self-restraint). Afterwards, if you read
verse 48:29, it is clear that Muslims were just hard, harsh, strong, fierce, stubborn, vehement and severe against unbelievers
of Makkah (48:29) who were in turn hard, harsh, strong, fierce, stubborn, vehement and severe against Muslims (48:25-26).
You have to read in context the whole chapter. The whole chapter is speaking about an upcoming victory of Muslims. And
Muslims were only ordained to be hard against those unbelievers who were willing to harm them. I hope this explanation is
enough for you. Let me know if you require some more description for better understanding.
Hoping to hear from you soon.
SK
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail wrote:
Again you are telling me the same old story that I had already retorted in my last two posts. The difference you do not find
between the translations except the word 'ruthless' can be replaced with hard, harsh or strong; is actually a valid disparity in
Arabic Language which you seemed to deny deliberately. In the world of rational thinking this is absurdity. You may not seem
to accept the structural categorization of Arabic language and perceiving the meanings with the scale of your own which in this
case is ‘English’. Meaning, again you are doing your own translations and interpretations. As I have said before twice and I am
saying again that 'ruthless' in Arabic Language falls under different category and it is no where depicts the notion you are
trying to impose forcefully. This particular verse is no where depicting Muslims as ruthless to non-believers; but they are hard
and stead fast against their demeanor towards Muslims and they are not wax that the non-believers may mold them as they
like; they can neither be cowed nor purchased by any inducement. If some one misunderstood this particular verse then it is
the problem of his intellect and not this verse is violent.
Suhail yes ofcourse I dont understand Arabic and its structural categorization because Arabic is no where close to English.
And if what you say is the case then Islam should only be practiced by people who know Arabic. That was one point and the
second point is that you also dont seem to understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that fine, let's forget about
RUTHLESS, in fact let's forget that word exists. But instead of "Ruthless" you replace with anything and that verse still sounds
racist towards non-muslims. Which is not acceptable. And please do not try to change the meaning of this verse. You are
making it sound like Non-muslims have been unfair to Muslims and so Muslims have to be hard with them. Where in this verse
does it say that? Muslims have been most unfair to non-muslims anywhre in the world and you are trying to play victim? BS.
Not acceptable. The only thing I dont know is whether a good Muslim like yourself is as guilty of atrocities on non-muslims as
bad Muslims like OBL?
I am pretty much aware that people from other religions when locate bogus verses in their holy books and when they are not
able to defend them they just show their disbelief and move on. Every person in every religion is unique; whenever we try to
corner them using their own 'Holy Scriptures' they run away blabbering that "I do not believe in this" and "I do not believe in
that". I can put your good self as a perfect example befitting this. Afterwards, they deem that the same absurdity is present in
every religion on the face of the earth. However, as I have said before that Muslims do not believe their Quran to be fallible
and we do not really require to 'run away' from the truth as well. Therefore, why are you forcing us to believe in this kind of
absurdity? If you think that you have a tumor then why do you deem that Muslims must have the same?
This exactly is the problem of muslims. You dont BELIEVE Koran could have any verse that could be fallible. And belief, even if
worst, is very hard to fight, aint it? Why am I even hitting my head on walls? But I shall keep trying. It is not belief my friend but
it is hard headeadness and false pride in the belief you follow.
So because other people can admit their own mistakes and you cant makes them false and you right? I thought it should be
other way around?
Regarding Muslims misunderstood some of the verses in Quran; Yes! I believe this. But it was foolish of you to measure more
than a billion Muslims into the same category as compared to few Muslims who misunderstood. If your brother is a menace to
society, will it be a justice from my side to paint whole family of yours as a danger? What will you do to your brother then? You
will expel him from your family if he is not willing to change and keep understanding the 'misunderstood'. It is your media who is
making such 'misunderstood' Muslims famous. It is again Western media who is clinging such 'misunderstood' Muslims to the
world of Islam. It is your problem that you heed to non-Muslims interpretation of Islamic Scriptures rather than listening to
authentic Scholars of Islam. It was made evident by your good self as well by location from where you had pulled out the verse
in question right now. There are two distinct groups at war in the world right now; one is lead by personal gain and other by
religion. If 1.5 billion Muslims were to adhere to 'True Islamic interpretations' of clowns like Ali Sina, then brother it is impossible
that you could still be living. We could have killed you long before and could have easily justified our actions from our Holy
Books. What ever some 'misunderstood' Muslims are doing in the world is wrong and their actions do not reflect the real Islam
that we have been taught. Whatever Hitler did; I cannot label Christianity as a barbaric religion. Same thing applies to Islam as
well. I cannot label Islam as a ruthless faith because 'Javed Iqbal' killed 100 children, ate them and put their remains in an acid.
I cannot label Judaism a merciless religion because Menachem Begin had blood of scores of innocent people on his collar. I
cannot label Hinduism a pitiless religion because hindus killed Muslims in Gujrat. This is wrong and illogical. Therefore you do
not judge faiths by deeds of some people; look at their scriptures of what actually they preach. Look at the roots and not the
branches. Even branches can become stale while the root is intact. Similarly, same decree fix to George Bush and Osama Bin
Laden as well. You give us examples of some 'misunderstood' Muslims and they automatically reform into 'ALL MUSLIMS' by
western media. Muslims are not angels, we are humans. Humans just like you. We have bad people and good people in our
community. However, if some one is willing to reveal BAD people only and they have good means to do it (media), then we
cannot do anything about it. And yes! Burden of proof is on us and no where in my posts I have denied accepting this
responsibility. At least I was asking from you to think deeper and concentrate on my evidence; which I seemed you have
misconstrued completely. It seems to me that you lack apt intellect in understanding technicalities of languages; therefore,
from now onwards I will just keep you on the surface of understanding.
Okay finally, good and fair enough. But have I anywhere said that all Muslims are terrorists? Tell me if I have somewhere
please. I would like to see my own hypocracy.
You still dont understand the point of this debate. The point is that these verses are being misunderstood and it is causing
problems. No religion is greater than human life and peace. Please remove, change or clear out these verses so you and I
and all of us can live in peace.
About, your example of "My brother being a menace to society" the difference between your thinking and mine is that if my
brother is a menace then ofcourse no one can blame whole family but it does become a duty of a family to fix what made my
brother a menace. If they are terrorists and terrorizing in the name of Islam then who is going to fix it? It is your duty. You cant
just walk away from it and leave it to the rest of the world to worry about. It is only your duty to fix that not others. And you are
trying to get away by saying that 1 billion muslims should not be blamed for the actions for few, but they are being blamed, you
know why? Because it is the mosques that is producing these terrorists and what is mosque? Mosque is a religion place of
Worship of MUSLIMS and who are Muslims? Muslims are people who follow ISLAM. So who should people point finger to? If
they were being produced by a political party then this debate would've been against that political party like ETA or IRA etc.
You see the difference?
About the rest of your reply. what the rest of the verses are saying is not my problem. why or how that verse came about is not
my problem. I am already giving it to you and Islam that Islam is great religion. I am not here to downgrade religion but I am
here to upgrade humanity. And Humanity is in deep *** because some bastards cant understand, maybe, as much as you? So
it is your(Muslim's) duty to fix that ***.
Please dont throw your garbage at us to fix. It is your garbage and so it is your responsibility. No one is saying all Muslims are
terrorists but I am saying that Islamic terrorists are responsibility of Muslims so good muslims like yourself should take it and do
whatever is required. In my opinion, you guys need to change some verses but if you think Koran is infallible then find another
way to fix it but, FIX IT.
Do you see me arging with a Buddhist, for example? I am not but I am arguing with a Muslim? Why? Think about that? Let me
say this again to let you feel better. No one has time to Insult your religion or your prophet or Allah. But they do, why? I mean if
people were bad they would insult all, No? But they dont, they insult you and your belief. Can you even remotely think that is is
possible that you and whatever you do might be responsible for this behavior of people, even if it is 50%?
My Response:
Dear Brother Iandonlyi,
Hoping that you are in the best of your health.
And if what you say is the case then Islam should only be practiced by people who know Arabic.
Brother! What were you reckoning when you jot down this declaration? I am earnestly feeling mortified in countering such
arguments; however, let me bring you into some light. When you desire to know about plants, you learn botany; when you
ache for knowledge about animals, you learn zoology. Similarly, if you have a craving of comprehending Islam then learning
Arabic is part of it. This is unpretentious and acceptable logic. I have never witnessed any soul other than your good self, ever
brought up such issues in my life. Congratulations on being the first one.
And please do not try to change the meaning of this verse. You are making it sound like Non-muslims have been unfair to
Muslims and so Muslims have to be hard with them. Where in this verse does it say that?
Brother! Now you have abandoned my evidence WITHOUT providing your proofs or acceptable logic. You alleged that I
attempted to ‘revolutionize’ the true meaning of the verse; this is again your yapping with out any evidence. PROVIDE ME THE
PROOF WHERE I HAVE ALTERED THE MEANING OF THE VERSE. Show me some bites behind your barks. Bring me any
Islamic Scholar who negates the way of interpretation that I actually did. This is inanity from your side where you rebuff my
evidences devoid of putting forth any acceptable logic or any evidence. This is not tolerable.
I only put forth the filthiest practices of populace like Ali Sina where they ‘always’ bring in their contentions against Islam by
quoting ‘OUT OF CONTEXT’. Look what actually happens when you quote out of context. Let me bring in front of you some of
your own sayings:
“Muslims were living in the world peacefully like the rest of non-muslims”. Isn’t this your statement? So if you really consider
this conception then why are you having a debate with me?
“I will leave and debate is over”. This is again what you had stated in your post. Now it is your choice and if you do not want to
continue this discussion you are welcome.
“muslims are equal to non-muslims”. I believe this perception and I appreciate dearly that at last you have faith in it as well.
“Non-muslims have been unfair to Muslims”. This is what I was striving to elaborate all along in this debate. Thanks that you
have already identified.
“all Muslims are terrorists”. But you said that ‘some’ of the Muslims are terrorists.
Now it must be lucid to you that how meanings vary when you cite something out of context. Aren’t these your own statements?
However, how do they imply when being stated out of context? This is what actually you people do with Quran. One sentence
removed out of its paragraph could imply a hell lot of things and completely opposite when put back in its paragraph. I can
pluck out several statements of yours from your own posts and make it a justification of my 'victory' over you in this precise
debate. For example you said,
“I will leave and debate is over”.
This is a valid justification of your withdrawal from this debate from your own mouth. Isn’t it? Therefore if you pluck out this
particular verse from its respective chapter; then it gives you a different meaning and when put back it will make your world
upside down.
Muslims have been most unfair to non-muslims anywhre in the world and you are trying to play victim? BS. Not acceptable.
The only thing I dont know is whether a good Muslim like yourself is as guilty of atrocities on non-muslims as bad Muslims like
OBL?
I am not aware why are you bringing all these issues in this precise discussion whereas I had already replied before. Can’t you
just understand what I tried to elaborate in my earlier posts, or are you so dumb? You are repeating the same old stories
again and again without even bringing in your contentions against my replies. All of your replies do not even consist of any
evidence or acceptable logic; besides you are repeating the same old story. Are you that immature brother? You sound like a
broken player where it is stuck on one statement “Muslims are unfair to non-Muslims”. For answer to your ‘million year old’
story go back to my earlier posts and swallow all of them properly.
So because other people can admit their own mistakes and you cant makes them false and you right? I thought it should be
other way around?
My earlier statement still holds good here: “If you think that you have a tumor then why do you deem that Muslims must have
the same?” Why would I admit when I haven’t done anything bad yet? See the fallacy of your argument. We are talking about
Holy Scriptures and you are talking about people. And I have already clarified this notion that I am not going to follow the
followers, rather follow the Holy Scriptures. Otherwise, do not let me loose if you want me to follow the follower. You will surely
forget about Muslims and Islam when I bring forth the ‘real’ followers from other religions. Again I have clarified every
contention of yours in my earlier posts.
But have I anywhere said that all Muslims are terrorists? Tell me if I have somewhere please. I would like to see my own
hypocracy.
Brother! Again you have misunderstood. Read the whole paragraph ‘in context’ and as a whole. ‘You’, as used by me is
actually addressed to general people who deem like you. It was not actually you.
You still dont understand the point of this debate. The point is that these verses are being misunderstood and it is causing
problems. No religion is greater than human life and peace. Please remove, change or clear out these verses so you and I
and all of us can live in peace.
Brother, let me bring forth the fallacy of your argument; once again. You are telling us to change the syllabus of Mathematics
because in a classroom of 50 students only 5 have misunderstood ‘some parts’ of it and failed their exams. And you do not
hanker after coaching those 5 students the accurate Mathematics; rather you are willing to change the syllabus. Or in the
worst case scenario expel them from the class if they are still not willing to heed. Later what is actually done by ‘Muslims’? Isn’t
it?
About, your example of "My brother being a menace to society" the difference between your thinking and mine is that if my
brother is a menace then ofcourse no one can blame whole family but it does become a duty of a family to fix what made my
brother a menace.
Again, you did not read my earlier reply carefully. I said, “if he is not willing to change and keep understanding the
'misunderstood'”.
Brother! I am tired now in replying to your repetitive stories. The only imperative thing I found in you post is where you said,
“And please do not try to change the meaning of this verse. You are making it sound like Non-muslims have been unfair to
Muslims and so Muslims have to be hard with them. Where in this verse does it say that?” Now please if you can enlighten me
that why did you not agree to my interpretation of this verse which is also in harmony with Islamic Scholars?
Bring in your logics, correct interpretation or any bona fide authority in support of your day-dreaming. Besides joining hands
with us in comprehending the correct and widely accepted interpretation of Quran and educating those ‘misunderstood’
Muslims, you chose to defy us. To which group are you with, brother? Are you with us or not? If not, then there is no difference
between you and those ‘misunderstood’ Muslims. They also did not heed to the correct interpretation of Quran and you are
doing the same.
Kindest regards.
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iandonlyi posted:
Hello All,
I am IandonlyI and a member of FFI.
Yes FFI is down for few days and so I just figured I visit here. Anyway, my views are not same as Ali Sina's and I do not think or
hope of eradicating a religion neighter am I going to insult your religion.
But you muslims do need to grow up. It is about time that you guys start respecting other faiths. It is about time you guys
become more tolerant and it is about time you stop concentrating on *** up verses in Koran(and this kind of *** up verses exist
in all religions so you need not feel bad) but this needs to stop.
Untill the last ones of you believe that whole world should convert to Islam you will have problems in the world. Islam is great
but other religions are as great.
As long as you respect me I will respect you but I do feel that my beliefs are under attack along with millions around the world
by Islam? Can you see why we feel that way? Karma says "what goes around comes around" so if you want to have more
problems for yourself then continue or change for good and let us all live in peace.
My Response:
Yes FFI is down for few days and so I just figured I visit here.
You are welcome. Do not fear of getting banned or deletion of your posts over here. You can freely share your views.
However; at least you have to mind your language. Foul language is not acceptable on this forum. Therefore, do not deem
censoring your foul speech falls under the notion of suppression of freedom of speech.
Anyway, my views are not same as Ali Sina's
At least your language is the same. We could easily feel the essence of your mentor in your language.
I do not think or hope of eradicating a religion
Thank you very much. There are more people joining the fold of Islam compared to the negligible amount leaving it.
Therefore, we are not worried actually. We are not after EX-MUSLIMS; but after those Muslims who are getting confounded by
the falsehood preach by FFI.
neighter am I going to insult your religion.
Oh! Thanks again. But wait a minute! you said that you are not going to insult our religion. Let's read further.
It is about time you guys become more tolerant and it is about time you stop concentrating on *** up verses in Koran(and this
kind of *** up verses exist in all religions so you need not feel bad) but this needs to stop.
Oh! No insult whatsoever. Such statements really depict the debauched bring up of a person. What else could we expect from
the disciples of Ali Sina beside using foul language? I wonder if such people ever revere their own family members and
associates. IanonlyI, you made certain statements; however, where are your evidences? Where are those verses which really
keeping you awake at night?
As long as you respect me I will respect you
Yes sure. Let me call you 'my brother' and I dearly mean it. I assure you that no Muslim on this particular forum will ever use
foul language against you, your religion and your religious associates. If some one will use it then he would be dealt strictly.
We are people from Islam and our religion strictly prohibits us using such language. You give a stinky perspective of your
personality when you use such speech.
You asked for respect brother. However, you tell me how are we going to revere you when you used foul language in your first
post? What kind of logic is this? Can you please explain? You are asking for respect in return and at the same time you
mocked our religion. Only insane person can respect you in favor of your demeanor. Isn't it?
but I do feel that my beliefs are under attack along with millions around the world by Islam?
Therefore, you deem that tit-for-tat is the solution. That is the reason you support FFI who also on other hand insults your
religion. Why don't you strive in safeguarding your religion from us? Or you do not have any logical grounds to defend your
faith? We Muslims also feel that our beliefs are under attack along with millions around the world by polemics and people like
you. However, we are defending it in a ways that are most gracious and wonderful and we have solid grounds to defend with.
So why do you think that you are the only left-out?
Karma says "what goes around comes around"
Please remember this Karma brother.
iandonlyi posted:
First of all, I do not know what I said was really bad?
Saying "Muslims need to grow up" is same thing as insulting Islam? Does Islam = Muslims? Can Muslims really swear by it?
Then it means there is no bad muslim outthere and if there are bad muslims then Islam is bad. Is that what you guys are
saying. Are you that insecure?
One poster here says that I am member of FFI and I say I respect religion? Well you can go there and look up on my ID(I have
same ID there) see if I have insulted your prophet or Koran. I do think however that Muslims are nuts.
It is time Muslims wake up because you will see when you open your eyes that we are far far away from 14th century. I
honestly do not know and do not care of what is the problem of muslims, all I care about is that Muslims become little tolerant.
The problem part is for muslims to figure out not me. And if I was to think, I think that is because you guys follow everything
word to word. I even said all religions have some BS like that more or less. So what insult did I throw at you?
I came here for pe@ce and I just wanted you to see that other people are willing to walk two steps if you could take one. But
you failed big time. And this referee (or whoever) is threatening me? LOL, you really think I care to be here?
You know what? There is no point of debate with Muslims untill you morons grow up. GO ahead do your Jihad and more you
push people the more people are going to explode and the result will be explosions of Iraq and Afghanistan and terrorism
throughout the world. Go ahead if you think that is the right thing to do. Freakin idiots. Go ahead behead me because I have a
family who I support. I bet that is the right thing to do right?
If I am allowed I will come back here or who cares? I actually took from another poster I was arguing there and I was starting to
believe that is Koran is junk and all that but now I know that nothing is wrong with religions but just people. And out of all
people Muslims suck.
I thought I would be one person whose heart Muslims would win.
My Response:
First of all, I do not know what I said was really bad?
Brother! First of all you need to educate us apropos your understanding of good & bad. It seems we have two dissimilar
comprehensions of generic terms 'good' & 'bad'. Ringing bells in your head! Revert to your first post and look for this "***". In
gentleman's lingo this is called bad. Category of gentlemen does not include Ali Sina and his clowns. What else do you label
it? Or may be your astuteness of distinguishing 'good' & 'bad' is taken away by the sermons of Ali Sina. Stop listening to him.
You definitely reveal the essence of your mentor in your speech. If you fail to recall what you had written then allow me to
email you the word that you used twice for Koran and then for every other religion in the world (including your own religion
yuck! ). We Muslims do not talk like this. May be this is part of your bring up; however, brother this is really showing how
debauched it would be.
Saying "Muslims need to grow up" is same thing as insulting Islam? Does Islam = Muslims? Can Muslims really swear by it?
Then it means there is no bad muslim outthere and if there are bad muslims then Islam is bad. Is that what you guys are
saying. Are you that insecure?
Again brother! I am seriously thinking that you have ever attended any school. Do you know the difference between 'insult' &
'foul speech’? Their meanings are miles apart and they are like chalk and cheese. We can bear the insult; however, we are
not going to tolerate 'foul speech'. Just imagine if I use the same word "***" for your mother or sister. How do you feel then?
Please do not portray yourself as a stinky personality because that would only make your roots notorious.
One poster here says that I am member of FFI and I say I respect religion? Well you can go there and look up on my ID(I have
same ID there) see if I have insulted your prophet or Koran. I do think however that Muslims are nuts.
Again the same rantings as like everyone on FFI forum. Allegations; devoid of Evidences. Muslims are nuts; but why? Because
IandonlyI says so? Brother IandonlyI, can you please provide proofs of your allegation as to why Muslims are nuts. If you
cannot or if we refute them; then are you ready to be labeled yourself as 'nuts'?
It is time Muslims wake up because you will see when you open your eyes that we are far far away from 14th century. I
honestly do not know and do not care of what is the problem of muslims, all I care about is that Muslims become little tolerant.
Brother IandonlyI, Again, I urge you to go back to your post and check out your greetings. You triggered our intolerance. Now,
do you get the answer why Muslims get intolerant? Do you want me to trigger your intolerance by using the same word "***" for
your mother or sister? This is what people like you are doing around the world. You are triggering Muslims by hitting their holy
book and the loved ones. We do not welcome criticism the way you did in the first post. This is not criticism; this is foul
language and we do not hail it.
The problem part is for muslims to figure out not me. And if I was to think, I think that is because you guys follow everything
word to word. I even said all religions have some BS like that more or less. So what insult did I throw at you?
Do you know the fallacy of your argument brother. You cannot apply such day-dreaming of yours in many of the organizations
in the world. Let's take an example of Army. If soldiers do not obey the commandments of their superiors 'word by word', they
will not prevail in the war. Isn't it? Now it depends solely on the nature of the commandments. Some commandments are evil in
nature as it seems your religion is part of it when you said all religions have some 'BS' more or less. Our commandment "The
Holy Quran" is not at all towards malevolence as portrayed by populace like Ali Sina and his disciples; because we are
defending it. On the other hand you are proving your religion as wicked by your admission ('BS') and by not defending it.
I came here for pe@ce and I just wanted you to see that other people are willing to walk two steps if you could take one. But
you failed big time.
Brother IandonlyI! Again, I urge you to go back to your first post and look for yourself the way you greeted. Was that a great
impression you left with your post? Imagine myself arriving at your place and greet you with "***" these words and ask you to
have a breakfast with me or go for a walk may be? Do you seriously going to accompany me? Please brother apply your
intellects before you write anything. They way you speak not only present your stinky personality; but on the other hand reveal
your roots as debased. Do not talk like Ali Sina and be yourself.
And this referee (or whoever) is threatening me? LOL, you really think I care to be here?
Settle this with him.
You know what? There is no point of debate with Muslims untill you morons grow up.
Muslim brothers! I am sick of these statements. Whenever you try to debate with these dumb-witted disciples of Ali Sina, they
always come up with this same excuse whenever you corner them. This is the same excuse given to me by yeezeevee,
Sanitarium and others on FFI. Come on brother IandonlyI, these are all excuses which are only showing you as 'preschooler'.
This is the nice way to go around and avoid discussions. Aren't you man enough to utter straight that I cannot debate with
you, without engendering any excuses? Or you do not have an ability to corner us on any issue? If you seriously think that we
are erroneous on our beliefs than why don't you corner us?
Alright, we will make this one-to-one? What do you say? I am the only Muslim moron grown up in this forum. What do you say
now?
I will ask the admin of this forum to provide us with a separate forum where only two of us can write and the world could see
only? What do you say now?
If you do not like me then I have many other Muslim brothers as well? You choose your own opponent. What do you say now?
See I have cornered you now. DEEM MILLION TIMES BEFORE YOU ANSWER OR THIS WILL GO AGAINST YOU.
GO ahead do your Jihad and more you push people the more people are going to explode and the result will be explosions of
Iraq and Afghanistan and terrorism throughout the world. Go ahead if you think that is the right thing to do. Freakin idiots.
Brother! Open the lid of your head and let the air come in. Cool down brother! Do not make such statements that only show
you stupid in the result. Did any one tell you that it is America in Muslim countries and not the other way around? If ONE rebel
beheaded ONE westerner then there was an outcry in the whole world; on the other hand world completely forgot the fire by
American troops which killed hundreds of civilians. If ONE group beheaded ONE westerner then there was an outcry in the
whole world; on the other hand world completely forgot the atrocities done by American forces in Abu-Ghraib and illegally
originated Guantanamo Bay. Brother IandonlyI, do not let the politics in our discussion. I can prove you that there are more
people killed by George Bush as compared to Osama; therefore, Bush is a greater terrorist. I can also prove to you that
Osama is only wanted in two cases; and these cases are remembered by only few percentage of people and as for the rest of
'Big Cases' HE IS ONLY A SUSPECT. And suspect means that he is not guilty of charges and THERE ARE NO EVIDENCES
LINKED TO HIM. :D
You are not going to win this battle as well and in the end world will see your nose getting rubbed on the ground. Therefore,
squeezed the discussion to Quran only. Let's discuss it! If you are man enough!
Go ahead behead me because I have a family who I support. I bet that is the right thing to do right?
Brother IandonlyI, leave this topic for some other time. I do not want to nail you down on this topic right now. Let's discuss
Quran first.
If I am allowed I will come back here or who cares?
You are always welcome. Brother! Do not get fear of getting banned or deletion of your posts over here. We are not like FFI.
However, we are only going to censor foul speech. For the definition of foul speech, you can refer to your first post where you
stick a certain word to 'Koran". We are not going to accept such language on this forum. Let Ali Sina's forum be dedicated for
such games. You can freely enjoy this kind of speech on his forum and contaminate it. But please not on this forum.
I actually took from another poster I was arguing there and I was starting to believe that is Koran is junk and all that but now I
know that nothing is wrong with religions but just people. And out of all people Muslims suck.
Again! Rantings rantings; devoid of evidences. Bring proofs of your belief. Show me that Quran is more 'junky' then your own
belief. Well you have already substantiated evidently in your first post that how 'junky' you actually are. Second post just
confirmed my belief. I gave you my evidences of you being 'junky' by nature. Let me see your evidences that Quran is 'junky'.
A person who talks big without proof is called a lunatic. This is what you have proved to me. At least, be a little different from
your mentor Ali Sina. Bring PROOFS !!!!
I thought I would be one person whose heart Muslims would win.
Go back to your first post again and sit down with a gentleman and ask him if your post is going to win Muslim hearts. Let us
know what he replies. Mind it! Ali Sina and his clowns does not fit in the category of gentlemen.
People usually say 'Hi', 'Hello' or 'Assalamu Alaikum' for the first good impression. Look what you had written in your first post
that actually required to be censored. And you seriously think you are going to win Muslim hearts.
Imagine myself going to your home and greet your mother or sister with this foul word "***" and, in turn, ask you to be my
friend. What do you think of me at that moment? Brother! This is stupidity and nothing at all. If you eat 'junky' food your
stomach become 'junky'; and if you read 'junky' stuff then your mind becomes 'junky'. This is what actually happened to you.
FFI has brain washed you so much with hatred, foul language and insults that you have already lost the wits of distinction
between 'good' and 'bad'.
Well you have a chance again. You can start over again. We will welcome again with a smile you if you are willing to take your
words back.
iandonlyi posted:
To all, especially, Suhail Khalid and BMZ.
Okay fine, truth is truth, so I do admit that I cursed in my first post. Hey in normal world people talk like that and I do too. So
you need not take such a big offence to it. But if it did, I apologize.
About my religion, I honestly am not a great believer. But I do believe in good parts out of eastern religions. Sikhism, Hinduism
and Buddhism. So let's just leave it there. And please do not try to influence me to convert, ever, because it is never going to
work. If you still like to you can challenge yourselves.
BMZ thanks man. Yea it is nice to see old neighbors here too. Dont worry these muslims here accuse me of being a disciple of
Sina but I am not, I have my own brain.
About the verses of Koran that muslims are asking me to bring, I diddnt even think it was necessary for me to bring any but
now that you asked let me look them up and I will bring. But there goes your belief that Islam is the greatest and no mistake
could've ever crept in it. Where will we ever see a Muslim who can stand up and say, you know what, I dont know how but this
verse does not make sense or this is wrong etc. When will you learn to question your own belief? I am not one to ask you to
denounce Islam but can you atleast question what is bad there? But then you just dont think there is anything bad so no point.
Here, let's see. In Hinduism there is caste system and you know what I tell any Hindu that these verses of caste system are BS
and they admit it. Can we see the same from Muslims? But I guess I have to bring verses. I will be back. Buet let's say that
even if these verses are bad but just misinterpreted then too there is a problem because so long as these verses with double
meanings exist there is a chance someone will suffer.
My Response:
Okay fine, truth is truth, so I do admit that I cursed in my first post. Hey in normal world people talk like that and I do too. So
you need not take such a big offence to it. But if it did, I apologize.
Alright brother! As far as I am concerned I have accepted your apology. Secondly, what you are labeling as normal is not
actually normal; but this is termed as abnormality. Speaking in such a sway depicts the sickness of mind. I dare you, if you
speak in such a way in front of your family members. I believe you do not; then it means it is not normal. Your family is a
normal world to you. Thirdly, it does not give a good perspective of a personality if such a person speaks this way. Fourthly,
you do not speak like this with strangers; otherwise, expect a punch from them. Again this is not normal. Last but not the least,
you do not use such words when it comes to religious matters. The same matter we are discussing over here. People loose
credibility if they speak like this.
About my religion, I honestly am not a great believer. But I do believe in good parts out of eastern religions. Sikhism, Hinduism
and Buddhism.
Again brother! this is absurdity. You ought to believe in one religion or be an atheist. If you are clinging to only good parts of
one religion then it means other people can stick to the bad parts. It also means Javed Iqbal, Hitler, Jim Jones and David
Koresh could easily justify their actions from their holy books. This is false analogy. Almost every religion claims its book to be
divine. God doesn't speak bad and this is against His characteristics. If the people of the book are not able to defend their bad
parts then it surely means their book is not divine. However, this is not the case with Islam. We claim Holy Quran to be the
word of God and we are defending it from people like Ali Sina.
And please do not try to influence me to convert, ever, because it is never going to work. If you still like to you can challenge
yourselves.
Why would we try to convert you? This not in our hands brother. Our duty is to convey the message. Afterwards, this is your
intellect to judge the message. God will not ask us that how many people have we converted. But the question will be that if we
have conveyed the message correctly. We are only 'messengers' and not 'converters'. I believe you have understood.
Dont worry these muslims here accuse me of being a disciple of Sina but I am not, I have my own brain.
Alright brother! Naming you a disciple of Ali Sina was only a retaliation towards your first post. The reason was that almost
every FFI clown give references to Ali Sina's interpretations when ever they argue. Therefore I termed them as disciples of Ali
Sina. You said you have a brain, please use it in deriving acceptable logics. I apologize that you have felt bad. Sometimes you
have to be little harsh with people and this is only for their betterment. Please recall that I have called you my brother and I
have meant it.
About the verses of Koran that muslims are asking me to bring, I diddnt even think it was necessary for me to bring any but
now that you asked let me look them up and I will bring.
Why did you think it was not necessary to bring Quranic verses? You laid allegations against Quran without bringing the
evidence. What kind of logic is this? You do not really have to work hard in finding the verses. Just visit the website of Ali Sina
and you will hit upon ample of them alongside his 'scholarly' interpretations. Just bring them one-by-one. We have tried our
level best to refute Ali Sina's allegations on his forum; but some of us were banned and some of the posts were deleted. In my
case I challenged them; however no one showed up. These are the practices of people who stand on shaky ground of faith
when they do not stumble upon something concrete to defend their allegations they do cheap acts. Such were doubts for Ali
Sina and such were proven by him.
But there goes your belief that Islam is the greatest and no mistake could've ever crept in it. Where will we ever see a Muslim
who can stand up and say, you know what, I dont know how but this verse does not make sense or this is wrong etc. When will
you learn to question your own belief? I am not one to ask you to denounce Islam but can you atleast question what is bad
there? But then you just dont think there is anything bad so no point.
Yes! We do believe that Islam is the greatest religion on earth and no mistake could ever crept in it. We have struggled so
hard to find a single discrepancy or error in Quran; but all in vain. Why do you want us to find errors in Quran. This is your job
to find. And we are here to clarify those doubts of yours. And we are questioning you to show us the bad parts. People like Ali
Sina tried; however they have failed miserably. You try your luck. You deem that Muslim mind is not equipped with enough
rationality to think deep and his brain tends to accept everything true; then corner us. Make us speechless. We have given
you all our 'ammunition' and we have 'disclosed' all our 'secrets' to you. Now, the ball is in your court. Bring your contentions if
you think you are truthful. Call in your 'scholars' to help you with. I will call my Allah to help me.
Here, let's see. In Hinduism there is caste system and you know what I tell any Hindu that these verses of caste system are BS
and they admit it. Can we see the same from Muslims?
First of all you have be clarified on a notion that the God's word should not contain any error. If God's word is fallible then it
means He is imperfect. God can never be fallible as this is against His characteristic. There is no point in following a fallible
doctrine. If such Hindus are still following their religion portraying themselves as 'picky' in following certain parts of their
religion; then it means their religion is not of divine origin. However, this is not the case with Quran as every word of it is from
God. I am not going to follow the followers; however I am going to follow the doctrine. This is logical because followers do not
portray the true picture of their religion. I want documented proofs and not what followers run after.
But I guess I have to bring verses. I will be back. Buet let's say that even if these verses are bad but just misinterpreted then
too there is a problem because so long as these verses with double meanings exist there is a chance someone will suffer.
Brother IandonlyI! This is the most difficult task that you have to go through with. You have to be very careful in choosing the
format in which you are going to interpret the verses. You have to answer some questions of mine before we proceed further
in explaining those verses:
1) What evidence would your churn out in your explanation that these verses are interpreted correctly?
2) We are not going to accept any interpretation from pathetic 'Scholar' like Ali Sina and his clowns? Ali Sina is no scholar of
Islam. He does not even know Arabic. He is the worst in the pack of other critics of Islam when it comes to the science of
interpretation. We doubt that he has ever been to any school. For a glimpse of how Ali Sina does interpretation; please visit
the following link and go through some of the verses I posted there WITH EVIDENCE.
3) I will bequeath you with the interpretations of Islamic Scholars, references from authentic books and logical explanations.
Are you going to accept them as my evidences? If not, then again you have to bring your evidences in denial. You have to
quote a renown Scholar of Islam or a book as your evidence in denial of my proofs.
Lastly, I welcome you brother in discussing Islamic matters with us. Waiting anxiously for your reply.
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail Khalid,
I have found you to be the most rational on this site so I will only be discussing with you. I am not here for one upping,
paybacks, revenge, mud slinging, wasting my time etc. so I will not bother responding to others on the site.
Also, you rightly say that you dont use the bad words in front of family!!!! You are right I dont and will not ever. But I do talk
like taht with friends. Whatever it is bad words shall not enter our discussion going forward. Promise. Let's put that behind.
Also, I already told you what religion I follow and I am not ashamed of whatever I do or whatever I am. But I hope giving you my
total profile of my myself, parents, country etc. is not necessary for us to continue. Dont feel safe on internet. Maybe someday
we could be good brothers and close in relation and we can exchange personal information. I only ask because some others
on the site wanted me to disclose some/all that.
Now before I post the verse I want to start with can you please tell me what exaclty does Kafir mean? Because I dont want any
misunderstandings after I post the verse.
Also, now that I consider you a scholar of Islam please dont give me false information, I mean give me exactly what Islam says.
Sorry dude, I am putting too much pressure on you but reading your language I have no doubt that you are scholar already.
ALso, do you mind if I make our discussion public? I mean I dont want to go behind your back but I just want to let you know
beforehand that whatever the case I will give this discussion as a link to haters and non haters as I feel. If that is not OK, it I
wont. Let me know.
R,
IandonlyI.
Suhail Khalid,
Sorry dude I totally missed your questions.
1) Fair enough, we wont use Ali Sina's interpretations. ALso, hey man just because I used to be at FFI forum does not mean
Ali Sina has trained me or LOL.
WHy are my responses being trimmed? I said nothing bad, no foul language or nothing.
Anyway Suhail Khalid, We dont have to use ALi SIna's interpretation and yes you can bring in anyone but as long as his/her
interpretation does not sound irrational & Illogical. I mean I dont like when it is sunlight outside and people like to make you
believe that it is night right now, that kind of reference is not acceptable.
My Response:
I have found you to be the most rational on this site so I will only be discussing with you. I am not here for one upping,
paybacks, revenge, mud slinging, wasting my time etc. so I will not bother responding to others on the site.
Let me correct you again my brother. I am not the most rational; however, I am the least. This statement is definitely not out of
humbleness; but this is the truth. For what I was a year back and what I am now; there was a revolution in me. Let's leave it for
future conversation.
I have already given you a choice to pick your opponent. However, if you would like to discuss with me then you are most
welcome. Remember, I had put forth a proposition in front of you that I would ask admin to create a separate forum for
debaters, where only we can write and world could read. Do you like this idea?
Also, you rightly say that you dont use the bad words in front of family!!!! You are right I dont and will not ever. But I do talk
like taht with friends. Whatever it is bad words shall not enter our discussion going forward. Promise. Let's put that behind.
Alright! I can also correct you over here again :D ; however, I am sticking to your proposition. Let's put that behind.
Also, I already told you what religion I follow and I am not ashamed of whatever I do or whatever I am.
No brother! You did not tell me about your religion. What I perceived from your statements is that you are not following a
religion; but a hodgepodge. Some thing from here and some thing from there. Religions have names. Give me the name or be
an atheist.
But I hope giving you my total profile of my myself, parents, country etc. is not necessary for us to continue. Dont feel safe on
internet. Maybe someday we could be good brothers and close in relation and we can exchange personal information. I only
ask because some others on the site wanted me to disclose some/all that.
Brother IandonlyI! You have a full right to conceal your identity and no one can force you to disclose it. This is out of logical
grounds. Let me bring a little smile on your face; as you must be aware Ali Sina has renewed his challenge and over there he
writes that he is not going to debate with 'ANONYMOUS' Muslims; but with only renowned Scholars of Islam and they have to
be very famous. Brother! Did you smile :)? 'ANONYMOUS' Ali Sina does not want to debate with 'ANONYMOUS' Muslims. Isn't it
illogical? You ought to smile brother. This is the same excuse he presented to our learned brother zuher during the debate; in
order to stop the debate. I will let you know when this debate is available on my website. It is a must read.
As per personal conversation with me brother; you are more than welcome :).
Now before I post the verse I want to start with can you please tell me what exaclty does Kafir mean? Because I dont want any
misunderstandings after I post the verse.
"Kafir", verb "kufr".... disbelief and abject opposition to Allah SWT and/or His signs. This is the definition of the word itself. If I
speak from your mouth; I am a kafir to you. As for christian; I am a kafir to him. As for Jews; I am a kafir to him as well. For Arab
Christians and Jews; I am a kafir to them. AND FOR EVERY RELIGION IN THIS WORLD I AM A KAFIR TO THEM. I reject their
religious doctrine and do not believe in their gods; then I am a kafir for them. Disbeliever in English; Kafir in Arabic. If some
one feels offended by this term then let him produce some other word from Arabic language.
Also, now that I consider you a scholar of Islam please dont give me false information, I mean give me exactly what Islam says.
Sorry dude, I am putting too much pressure on you but reading your language I have no doubt that you are scholar already.
Please Brother IandonlyI, I never claimed to be a scholar of Islam. I said that I would 'quote' you from the Scholars of Islam. Let
me give you a shock brother! I am the least of most knowledgeable persons on this forum. I am aware that there are only few
of them. I am not speaking out of humbleness or else I would have said that "I am the least of least knowledgeable persons on
this forum". This is not my language and this is not how I talk. I talk straight. I am not like Ali Sina who butter up his goons and
clowns on his forum and make them higher than him; Ali Sina is much better than them and he is also an expert in taming his
jokers.
I am not a scholar of Islam; not even a full-fledged student; but a beginner. However, I strive for seeking truth. If you ask me
any question and if I am not aware of the answer; then I will definitely refer to my colleagues on this forum or anywhere else for
authentic answers. I am a man enough to utter straight that I do not know the answer. I do not accept answers without proofs,
evidences or acceptable logics. These are my criteria or you may call touchstones to judge the authenticity of any answer.
ALso, do you mind if I make our discussion public? I mean I dont want to go behind your back but I just want to let you know
beforehand that whatever the case I will give this discussion as a link to haters and non haters as I feel. If that is not OK, it I
wont. Let me know.
We are already in public. Ask your associates to come on this forum. Join it and have a discussion with us. I do not mind at all.
Spreading truth is my job and you are helping me in this task :).
Sorry dude I totally missed your questions.
1) Fair enough, we wont use Ali Sina's interpretations. ALso, hey man just because I used to be at FFI forum does not mean
Ali Sina has trained me or LOL.
It's ok! As I have said before that Ali Sina is the worst in the pack of critics when it comes to the science of interpretation of
holy scriptures.
Brother you tell me the truth now! Do not lie! Did you visit the link I provided in my last post. What do you feel of Ali Sina after
reading those interpretations? Don't you deem that he is dupe and childish in his approach? And he is lying to the world?
WHy are my responses being trimmed? I said nothing bad, no foul language or nothing.
Don't worry brother! This is only to make things easy for me to answer and for the readers to understand. I will not take your
words out of context, I promise. I will never misquote or mis present you. I am a Muslim and not Ali Sina. And such practices
are not allowed by my religion. See, this is the power of religion as it restricts you from doing bad deeds. People like Ali Sina
chose to rummage around like animals rather than following a discipline, they will never ever prevail.
Anyway Suhail Khalid, We dont have to use ALi SIna's interpretation and yes you can bring in anyone but as long as his/her
interpretation does not sound irrational & Illogical. I mean I dont like when it is sunlight outside and people like to make you
believe that it is night right now, that kind of reference is not acceptable.
Revert to my questions to you in my last post.
1. You have a liberty to discard my logics with your logics.
2. My evidences from Islam with your evidences from Islam.
3. My Scholars of Islam with your Scholars of Islam.
4. You also have a liberty not to accept my logics and vice versa.
5. However, denying proofs and evidences; hhhhmmmmm, would be very difficult for you. Ain't it ;).
Regarding your example of day and night; a perfect example befitting Ali Sina and his likes. I HAVE ALREADY PROVIDED
PROOFS AND NO ONE ON EARTH CAN DENY IT :).
By the way how old are you? I am 27. Waiting for your reply.
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail Khalid,
Man with your responses I now have no doubt that you are scholar and if not pretty close to being one.
Anyway, so now I understand the meaning of Kufr. Correct me if I am wrong. Kufr means nonbeliever. For a muslim non-
muslims are nonbelievers and for non-muslims muslims are. Good enough. I am going to start with one verse.
But let me clarify somethings first. Your question on whether I read the link you sent. Honestly I did not.
1) Ali Sina is not my concern, my concern is why is there ali sina. Ali Sina is the last person on my mind and let me repeat I am
not his follower. If I was I would've came here and said "Islam is this and that and Mohammed is this and that, etc." I did not.
2) Yes a one-on-one forum would be great.
3) And lastly yes something that is clear cut obviously I wont deny it. I also have a god that I answer to and I also have shame.
4) Lastly and most importantly I am only questioning islam as much as I question other religions. I am not here for offence
although I could get angry at times and go out of control. If you ever feel offended let me know and we stop right away.
However, I would like to bring that up that Muslims question their religion the least and even if Islam is perfect and I mean to
word to word, still questioning will not make it bad. However, I am no one to tell Muslims anything. It is your choice and it is your
religion. But I am debating because I believe some muslims(like OBL) are too stuck on certain verses of Koran which causes
some problems. Again Karma, why do something which will cause the other party to respond in kind and world actually does
work that way so why not just do things that are good so the whole world responds in kind and this case, respond with good. I
consider myself citizen of this world and I believe you and I are more important than religions. I am concerned about this world.
Do you not feel that WWIII is closer? I do. Man everyday there is something new, and that new is almost always bad.
How long will we live in this constantly inflammed hearts and minds?
The verse I would like to question is below. And yes you would want a reference and so I brought it from another site, not
Sina's. I just did a search on the web and found it. Here is the site and the verse.
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."Victory 48:29
http://amalid.com/Islam/
Suhail Khalid is this OK or I need to find it from a Islamic scholar? If it is not OK please let me know why. I mean what is wrong
with the verse?
The most important thing I would like you to concentrate on is, even if this has a good meaning do you think that some
followers of Islam might be misunderstood? And it might be causing some problems?
My Response:
Dear Brother IandonlyI,
I do like to apologize for a delayed response, as for the reason that I was busy with some of my commitments. Please be aware
that such delays can occur in our future discourses because of my job and probably you could also be engaged somewhere. If
there would be some long delays then we will remind each other by sending an email or a 'personal message'. If you are willing
to frame time duration between replies then we can mull over it with each of us' consents. Please let me know if you are
interested:
Back to our dialogue:
Man with your responses I now have no doubt that you are scholar and if not pretty close to being one.
Thank you :).
Anyway, so now I understand the meaning of Kufr. Correct me if I am wrong. Kufr means nonbeliever. For a muslim non-
muslims are nonbelievers and for non-muslims muslims are. Good enough. I am going to start with one verse.
No brother! You are again wrong. Kufr is the root verb of noun kafir. Kufr means nonbeliever! (WRONG). KAFIR means
nonbeliever! (RIGHT). Rest what you had inscribed is correct.
But let me clarify somethings first. Your question on whether I read the link you sent. Honestly I did not.
It's alright. I just wanted to give you a glimpse of how Ali Sina and his clowns interpret Quranic verses. Brother IandonlyI! Isn't
this notion illogical that people refer to a less qualified teacher for erudition of a certain subject; compared to a highly
educated teacher who is available and in their reach as well. Do you have any idea what is going to happen to your intellect if
you listen and obey such a less qualified teacher? Such a stupid teacher will make your mind wounded. He will make you a
menace to the society. He will injure your past, present and future and he will transform you into animal like Ali Sina. Where as,
a highly qualified teacher will remove your doubts and he will correct you. He will guide you to the correct path to think and to
follow. In case of Ali Sina he is not even qualified as this stupid fraud does not even know Arabic and we Muslims have our
serious doubts if he had ever attended any school in his life. Who gave him authority to go around doing his own perverted
interpretations of Quran?
Brother IandonlyI! If I need to learn or understand Hindu Holy Scriptures I will refer to the Scholar who is well-versed in Sanskrit
language. This is logical. I will never confer to twisted brains people like Ali Sina who are not even well-versed in their own
lingo. This would be pure injustice from my side. Isn't it? Therefore such people, as they do not have any authority to do
interpretations; similarly they cannot be quoted as Evidences as well. Remember this!
1) Ali Sina is not my concern, my concern is why is there ali sina. Ali Sina is the last person on my mind and let me repeat I am
not his follower. If I was I would've came here and said "Islam is this and that and Mohammed is this and that, etc." I did not.
Let Ali Sina be your concern brother. He is actually the one who incited you to search for truth and you learn about Islam. No
matter it was good or bad; however, you have tasted a flavor of Islam now. Now you have to do justice and listen to our story
as well. Ali Sina made Islam very famous on Internet. I salute him as he is the one who inspired me in writing in defense of
Islam.
Every time you bring any contention against Islam; we Muslims will make you speechless. You cannot corner us in any issue
on Islam and this is my challenge. As per the debates placed on Ali Sina's website; I allege all of them being tampered by Ali
Sina and his goons. I have more people alleging Ali Sina of being a fraud; let alone him being his own witness. If you want to
prove my allegation erroneous then you have a ground (forum) to come over and discuss. Let's talk together. I promise that
we will never ever ban you or delete your posts. Subsequently, we have even provided you a separate forum to discuss
matters without hindering the concentration; this feature is not available on FFI. What else do you want? You ask us we will
provide you. Come! Come! debate with us, either in public, audio or written. With all your mighty 'scholarly' aptitude against us
and our Allah.
Yes a one-on-one forum would be great.
We are already here now brother!
3) And lastly yes something that is clear cut obviously I wont deny it. I also have a god that I answer to and I also have shame.
Brother! Again your statements are confounding me. This 'God' of yours; to which religion does He belong? Religion stems
from God or gods. Therefore, if you have a God then you must have a name of your religion. And 'God' of any religion does
not do hodge-podge. Please clarify.
Lastly and most importantly I am only questioning islam as much as I question other religions. I am not here for offence
although I could get angry at times and go out of control. If you ever feel offended let me know and we stop right away.
Questioning is every one's right. Quran also gives us permission to question, then answer, then question again. This is called
reasoning.
Regarding, "offense", brother! We will not tolerate any foul speech against any person in the world. Let it be your associates
and religious personalities; we are not going to use "foul language" PERIOD!
Secondly, you must have perceived till now that how do I sound from my writings. A bit harsh or may be very harsh. However, I
have never used any foul language. You can use me as an example. Or any other brother/sister on this forum.
Similarly, you have a right to get angry and you can also get out of control; but please keep your tongue in a leash and foul
speech should not crept into the keyboard through your hands via your tongue :D.
However, I would like to bring that up that Muslims question their religion the least and even if Islam is perfect and I mean to
word to word, still questioning will not make it bad.
Yes brother! You are right. Muslims do question their religion the least because we do not have any questions to ask. It is you
people who think that Islam is evil and then questions rose up in your minds.
It is a huge surprise for me that people like you consult populace like Ali Sina and his goons/clowns for Islamic interpretations.
You people confer with Western Media for Islamic answers and clarifications. You uttered in your earlier post that Ali Sina
should be the last person on your mind. This is not true! Muslims were the last persons on your mind. Since, you have been
listening to Ali Sina's rants quite long; though, you accidentally dropped on our forum and you found me. Oh yes brother! You
made a statement in black and white in your first post that FFI was not accessible, therefore you thought of coming over here.
Meaning, that you have already traveled around the whole world and heed to every kind of yowling from non-Muslims Islam
haters and by the time you accidentally dropped in this forum you were already filled with extreme hatred. This was clearly
evident from your first post. Conclusion; Muslims were the last people in your mind. Therefore, it means that you have already
paid attention to Ali Sina's yapping and already made up your mind against Muslims and you just throw up whatever was filled
by FFI in your first post. And this was me who molded you a little and tried to wake up a little interest in you heart. And now we
are here.
This is what I analyzed from your first post, up till now. By God, I could go on and tell you many other things from your first
post; however I am keeping mum for now. Let us discuss the actual subject.
However, I am no one to tell Muslims anything. It is your choice and it is your religion. But I am debating because I believe
some muslims(like OBL) are too stuck on certain verses of Koran which causes some problems. Again Karma, why do
something which will cause the other party to respond in kind and world actually does work that way so why not just do things
that are good so the whole world responds in kind and this case, respond with good. I consider myself citizen of this world and
I believe you and I are more important than religions. I am concerned about this world. Do you not feel that WWIII is closer? I
do. Man everyday there is something new, and that new is almost always bad.
How long will we live in this constantly inflammed hearts and minds?
Brother! Regarding Osama Bin Laden and if he is a Muslim or not? It is another subject. Please do not deem that I am
avoiding answering you; but directing this way will make the actual subject go astray. Let's keep ourselves to Quran and we
will concentrate on other topics at the end of our discussion. Please confirm!
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YOU DO NOT REALLY NEED TO REPLY TO WHATEVER I HAVE WRITTEN ABOVE. WE CAN DISCUSS THIS AT THE END
OF OUR DISCUSSION. LET'S CONCENTRATE ON THE 'ROOT CAUSE OF ANARCHY IN THE WORLD'; THE HOLY QURAN
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The verse I would like to question is below. And yes you would want a reference and so I brought it from another site, not
Sina's. I just did a search on the web and found it. Here is the site and the verse.
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."Victory 48:29
http://amalid.com/Islam/
Suhail Khalid is this OK or I need to find it from a Islamic scholar? If it is not OK please let me know why. I mean what is wrong
with the verse?
My First Evidence:
Brother! As enlightened by other members of the forum the word "ruthless" used in this translation seems to be wrong. Please
provide your evidence by giving the name of the translator. Here I am giving you other translations from various different
translators.
Pickthall - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among
themselves.
Yusuf Ali - Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but)
compassionate amongst each other.
Hilali-Khan - Muhammad (SAW) is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and
merciful among themselves.
Shakir - Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate
among themselves
Sher Ali - Muhammad is the Messenger of ALLAH. And those who are with him are hard against the disbelievers but tender
among themselves.
Arberry – Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to
another.
Palmer – Mohammed is the Apostle of God, and those who are with Him are vehement against the misbelievers,-
compassionate amongst themselves;
Rodwell – Muhammad is the Apostle of God; and his comrades are vehement against the infidels, but full of tenderness
among themselves.
Sale - Mohammed [is] the apostle of God: And those who are with him are fierce against the unbelievers, [but] compassionate
towards one another.
The actual Arabic word used for 'ruthless' is 'ashidda' in the translation you afforded; and it is all-in-all wrong. The English
word 'ruthless' comes in the category of 'zulm' in Arabic which means 'cruelty', 'brutality', 'merciless'. However, translations that
I have presented above are widely used; some of them are famous and some of them are not. Some of them are Muslims and
some of them are not. Therefore, If you keep all of these translations into consideration then it is incorrect to translate the
Arabic word 'ashidda' as 'ruthless' as this is not the correct translation.
Now brother I have provided 9 well-known translations of the verse 48:29; and none of them has incorporated the word
"ruthless" in their translations. Now, you have to provide me the name of the translator who used this precise word in his
translation.
Brother! I am stopping here to give you some time to go through my evidence. I also have some more evidences to support
that this particular verse does not depicts towards cruelty or brutality; besides what I had churned out already. I will keep those
evidences for later discussion. Remember brother! I have provided you translations from non-Muslims translators as well. I am
still left with my evidences from:
1. Islamic Scholars
2. Authentic Books
3. Logic
However, I am not going to use these three options for now and shall keep them for later courses. I do not really want to
bombard you extraneously with all the matter I have. We will proceed step-by-step so that you can understand correctly. Here,
I am being very diverse from action plan of Ali Sina :).
After when you finish analyzing my evidence; please answer my following questions:
Q1) Do you agree to my evidence?
Q2) If not! then why?
Hoping to hear from you soon. Take Care
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail,
Not responding to most of the top part of your post I will get down to point. We shall discuss this later.
However, about time, we are not really waiting on anyone and we are debating at our own pace and time and so take your own
time. I am busy too and I might get delayed as well.
About Religion. Okay you can call my beliefs as hodge podge if you like, no problem. And I will not get offended at all. But
honestly speaking I do not really believe in religions. In God I trust big time. Let me know if you need me to define God as I
believe. However, there are good things that I have found in religions that I have picked up myself. I believe in eastern
religions because I find them very democratic while western, meaning, the one from middle east are all very non-democratic.
For example, Jewish man marries a non-jew then she has to convert etc. Now what happens is a Muslim girl wants to marry a
Jesih guy? Because at this point, her religion says that she can not marry non-muslim(correct me if I am wrong) while Jewish
religions says she has to convert, which is even a bigger crime in Islam. You see, so I find western religions as too imposing
and too controlling. That is not how a religion should be. That is wrong. Above was just an example.
Going back to verse.
I honestly do not know who wrote that verse and whose translation that is. But I do not see much difference between your
translation and the one I posted there except from "Harsh" "Hard" and "Ruthless". We can take the any of the word you posted
and replace ruthless with that.
My Response:
Dear Brother iandonlyi,
Hoping that you are in the best of your health. Thank you very much for your reply.
Not responding to most of the top part of your post I will get down to point. We shall discuss this later.
I respect that.
However, about time, we are not really waiting on anyone and we are debating at our own pace and time and so take your own
time. I am busy too and I might get delayed as well.
Sure! No problem at all from my side.
About Religion. Okay you can call my beliefs as hodge podge if you like, no problem. And I will not get offended at all. But
honestly speaking I do not really believe in religions. In God I trust big time. Let me know if you need me to define God as I
believe. However, there are good things that I have found in religions that I have picked up myself. I believe in eastern
religions because I find them very democratic while western, meaning, the one from middle east are all very non-democratic.
For example, Jewish man marries a non-jew then she has to convert etc. Now what happens is a Muslim girl wants to marry a
Jesih guy? Because at this point, her religion says that she can not marry non-muslim(correct me if I am wrong) while Jewish
religions says she has to convert, which is even a bigger crime in Islam. You see, so I find western religions as too imposing
and too controlling. That is not how a religion should be. That is wrong. Above was just an example.
I am skipping my reply for later discussion.
I honestly do not know who wrote that verse and whose translation that is.
It means that the translation is erroneous and some one mistranslated this precise verse in order to satisfy his warped
imaginations, with intent. May be the site (again anti-Islamic) from where you have picked up this verse, framed it to make it
anti-human intentionally? I am discarding the translation of this precise verse as authentic EVIDENCE from you due to lack of
bona fide support. Let's move on and discuss the acceptable translations of this verse.
But I do not see much difference between your translation and the one I posted there except from "Harsh" "Hard" and
"Ruthless".
Alright! It means that I can be flippant with words and can change/replace them to whatever suites me. It also means I can go
on and translate the verses of Bible or Hindu scriptures to my likes. It again means that I have an authority and I can vary the
intensity of verses by replacing their words anytime to suite my mood. Whereas, I am never an authority to such replacements
as I have no acquaintance of the languages. This is nothing but a mere fraud.
We can take the any of the word you posted and replace ruthless with that.
Brother! You left me with BIG dilemma to tackle with. Now, I have to confer with all the scholars of Arabic in order to appeal
them to ‘revolutionize’ the structure of Arabic Language. Afterwards, they need to edify all the Arabic speaking people in the
world about this modification. You asked for a revolution where un-intentionally you imagined that Arabic word for ‘strong’,
‘hard’, ‘harsh’ can be replaced with ‘ruthless’, straightforwardly. This is IMPOSSIBLE and in order to satisfy your request we
also need to change the word in the Holy Quran as well. Again I am stuck with double problems.
As I said before that the English word ‘ruthless’ falls in the category of ‘zulm’ in Arabic which means ‘cruelty’, ‘brutality’,
‘merciless’. Therefore, we need to replace the word ‘ashidda’ with some other word that fits in the category of ‘zulm’ in Arabic,
and there are many words. It seems like some how you didn’t pay attention to my reply in earlier post or otherwise you hadn’t
come up with what you wrote afterwards. Keeping your ‘idea of replacement’ into consideration, Muslims require replacing
the word in the Holy Quran and its translations as well. I believe you must be aware by now the disparity between English
translation and Arabic original.
Translations are not the true portrayal of the originals. They can come close to the originals in meanings; however can never
become the veritable copy of them. This is the case with almost every holy book present now.
Do not deem English as a stand-in of Arabic. There is not a sole holy book on the face of the earth which is inscribed in
English originally. Therefore, it is not necessary that synonyms are same in both the languages. English is no where close to
Hebrew, Greek or Arabic or it is ever been inspired by these languages. I hope you understood correctly.
Brother! I am again not presenting my other EVIDENCES to prove that this precise verse is not anti-human; until receiving
your chunk of acquiescence on what I presented above and in my earlier post. I would again like you to comment on my
Evidence; which you chose to skip in your last post. I am not aware why? If you do not accept my Evidence then please
inform me why?
Hoping to hear from you soon. Take Care.
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail Khalid wrote:
Alright! It means that I can be flippant with words and can change/replace them to whatever suites me. It also means I can go
on and translate the verses of Bible or Hindu scriptures to my likes. It again means that I have an authority and I can vary the
intensity of verses by replacing their words anytime to suite my mood. Whereas, I am never an authority to such replacements
as I have no acquaintance of the languages. This is nothing but a mere fraud.
Okay, I guess I need to become intense as now we are talking nitty gritties of religion. No I did not say that we can replace the
words when we like and anytime we like. What I said was that I do not find much difference between the translations you
presented and the one I presented, except for the word ruthless, which were presented by the Islamic scholars as hard, harsh,
etc. So I was only saying that we can replace the word "Ruthless" with hard, harsh or whatever you want to pick from the list
you presented and move on on the verse.
About replacing words from books on other religions, I dont think we are discussing other religions here, we are only
discussing Islam. Other religions and their followers have moved on mostly and the ones that are not are in process of moving.
So other religions do not really have problems. But the verses of Koran are misunderstood by Muslims themselves and that is
why we see so many problems. However, if it helps you present your case you can replace anything you want from any religion
in the world. Other religions and their verses are least of my worries. You will find big majority of followers of other religions
who will accept that "You know this verse in my own religion is false and it makes no sense" or at least the educated followers
of other religions say that. However, you being educated you do not find that any and I mean single verse in Koran could be
problamatic. And that is one reason we are debaing and the second reason is that I just want to show you that Islamic
terrorists are taking verses of Koran to do what they are doing. And some of the verses in Koran are surely problamatic in the
views of us non-muslims. However, since a educated you are claiming that there is not even a sinlge verse in Koran that is
problamatic then the burden of proof rides on your shoulder.
If you say just once that, Yes a verse in Koran is problamatic and should not be paid much attention to then I will leave and
debate is over. But you say otherwise so let's continue. Another reason why this debate would not exist is if Muslims were
living in the world peacefully like the rest of non-muslims or atleast not commit crimes quoting a religion and in name of
religion. If we were to point at a single reason why this debate, FFI etc. exists are Muslims have become very violent and show
no respect to the non-muslims.
Also, if you want I can bring in any verse and you present the "correct" translation and we can debate on that "correct"
translation. By paying much attention to who translated the verse and what was in his/her mind at that given point when he/she
wrote it we are goin off track from the point of the debate, which is to prove that there could be a single verse in Koran which is
problamatic and that could be causing some violence. Just so you know, the translations you presented made no difference to
my mind as compared to my translation to word ruthless. And no that is not due to any prejudice but it is due to the fact that it
still talks about some discrimination about treatment of non-muslims which is not acceptable to me and to any fair minded
person. And so this verse could be causing some violence. Unless you can provide a proof in that verse that clearly says that
muslims are equal to non-muslims and all should get same treatment I think that verse is wrong.
Let's see if you can provide proof or admit. I already know what your answer will be if you are truthfull or if you are going to
stand with your belief that there can be no single verse in Koran that could be problamatic.
My Response:
Dear Brother iandonlyi,
Hoping you are in the best of your health. Thank you for your reply.
Okay, I guess I need to become intense as now we are talking nitty gritties of religion. No I did not say that we can replace the
words when we like and anytime we like. What I said was that I do not find much difference between the translations you
presented and the one I presented, except for the word ruthless, which were presented by the Islamic scholars as hard, harsh,
etc. So I was only saying that we can replace the word "Ruthless" with hard, harsh or whatever you want to pick from the list
you presented and move on on the verse.
Again you are telling me the same old story that I had already retorted in my last two posts. The difference you do not find
between the translations except the word 'ruthless' can be replaced with hard, harsh or strong; is actually a valid disparity in
Arabic Language which you seemed to deny deliberately. In the world of rational thinking this is absurdity. You may not seem
to accept the structural categorization of Arabic language and perceiving the meanings with the scale of your own which in this
case is ‘English’. Meaning, again you are doing your own translations and interpretations. As I have said before twice and I am
saying again that 'ruthless' in Arabic Language falls under different category and it is no where depicts the notion you are
trying to impose forcefully. This particular verse is no where depicting Muslims as ruthless to non-believers; but they are hard
and stead fast against their demeanor towards Muslims and they are not wax that the non-believers may mold them as they
like; they can neither be cowed nor purchased by any inducement. If some one misunderstood this particular verse then it is
the problem of his intellect and not this verse is violent.
About replacing words from books on other religions, I dont think we are discussing other religions here, we are only
discussing Islam. Other religions and their followers have moved on mostly and the ones that are not are in process of moving.
So other religions do not really have problems. But the verses of Koran are misunderstood by Muslims themselves and that is
why we see so many problems. However, if it helps you present your case you can replace anything you want from any religion
in the world. Other religions and their verses are least of my worries. You will find big majority of followers of other religions
who will accept that "You know this verse in my own religion is false and it makes no sense" or at least the educated followers
of other religions say that. However, you being educated you do not find that any and I mean single verse in Koran could be
problamatic. And that is one reason we are debaing and the second reason is that I just want to show you that Islamic
terrorists are taking verses of Koran to do what they are doing. And some of the verses in Koran are surely problamatic in the
views of us non-muslims. However, since a educated you are claiming that there is not even a sinlge verse in Koran that is
problamatic then the burden of proof rides on your shoulder.
Regarding other religions; it was a generic reply towards your statement. For the same reason or otherwise I would have
quoted you something from other religions to prove my point. Therefore, I was not discussing other religions over here. You
misunderstood completely.
I am pretty much aware that people from other religions when locate bogus verses in their holy books and when they are not
able to defend them they just show their disbelief and move on. Every person in every religion is unique; whenever we try to
corner them using their own 'Holy Scriptures' they run away blabbering that "I do not believe in this" and "I do not believe in
that". I can put your good self as a perfect example befitting this. Afterwards, they deem that the same absurdity is present in
every religion on the face of the earth. However, as I have said before that Muslims do not believe their Quran to be fallible
and we do not really require to 'run away' from the truth as well. Therefore, why are you forcing us to believe in this kind of
absurdity? If you think that you have a tumor then why do you deem that Muslims must have the same?
If you say just once that, Yes a verse in Koran is problamatic and should not be paid much attention to then I will leave and
debate is over. But you say otherwise so let's continue. Another reason why this debate would not exist is if Muslims were
living in the world peacefully like the rest of non-muslims or atleast not commit crimes quoting a religion and in name of
religion. If we were to point at a single reason why this debate, FFI etc. exists are Muslims have become very violent and show
no respect to the non-muslims.
Regarding Muslims misunderstood some of the verses in Quran; Yes! I believe this. But it was foolish of you to measure more
than a billion Muslims into the same category as compared to few Muslims who misunderstood. If your brother is a menace to
society, will it be a justice from my side to paint whole family of yours as a danger? What will you do to your brother then? You
will expel him from your family if he is not willing to change and keep understanding the 'misunderstood'. It is your media who is
making such 'misunderstood' Muslims famous. It is again Western media who is clinging such 'misunderstood' Muslims to the
world of Islam. It is your problem that you heed to non-Muslims interpretation of Islamic Scriptures rather than listening to
authentic Scholars of Islam. It was made evident by your good self as well by location from where you had pulled out the verse
in question right now. There are two distinct groups at war in the world right now; one is lead by personal gain and other by
religion. If 1.5 billion Muslims were to adhere to 'True Islamic interpretations' of clowns like Ali Sina, then brother it is impossible
that you could still be living. We could have killed you long before and could have easily justified our actions from our Holy
Books. What ever some 'misunderstood' Muslims are doing in the world is wrong and their actions do not reflect the real Islam
that we have been taught. Whatever Hitler did; I cannot label Christianity as a barbaric religion. Same thing applies to Islam as
well. I cannot label Islam as a ruthless faith because 'Javed Iqbal' killed 100 children, ate them and put their remains in an acid.
I cannot label Judaism a merciless religion because Menachem Begin had blood of scores of innocent people on his collar. I
cannot label Hinduism a pitiless religion because hindus killed Muslims in Gujrat. This is wrong and illogical. Therefore you do
not judge faiths by deeds of some people; look at their scriptures of what actually they preach. Look at the roots and not the
branches. Even branches can become stale while the root is intact. Similarly, same decree fix to George Bush and Osama Bin
Laden as well. You give us examples of some 'misunderstood' Muslims and they automatically reform into 'ALL MUSLIMS' by
western media. Muslims are not angels, we are humans. Humans just like you. We have bad people and good people in our
community. However, if some one is willing to reveal BAD people only and they have good means to do it (media), then we
cannot do anything about it. And yes! Burden of proof is on us and no where in my posts I have denied accepting this
responsibility. At least I was asking from you to think deeper and concentrate on my evidence; which I seemed you have
misconstrued completely. It seems to me that you lack apt intellect in understanding technicalities of languages; therefore,
from now onwards I will just keep you on the surface of understanding.
Let's get back to our discussion:
The name of the chapter 48 is "The Victory" and there are only 29 verses in it. The whole chapter is about glad tiding from
Allah to his Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) regarding an upcoming victory over disbelievers of Makkah. If you read
the whole chapter in context and look at the verse 48:25 it says:
"They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Sacred Mosque and the sacrificial animals, detained
from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye
were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, ((Allah) would have
allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been
apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment." (Quran 48:25)
In this precise verse Allah has defined disbelievers; as they were the ones who started their atrocities towards Muslims and
they were the ones who held up Muslims to visit the Holy Mosque. Read the next verse:
“While the Unbelievers got up in their hearts heat and cant - the heat and cant of ignorance,- Allah sent down His Tranquillity
to his Messenger and to the Believers, and made them stick close to the command of self-restraint; and well were they entitled
to it and worthy of it. And Allah has full knowledge of all things.” (Quran 48:26)
Again this particular verse describing characteristics of unbelievers of their over-all attitude towards Muslims (got up in their
hearts heat), where as on the other hand Allah has ordained Muslims to remain calm (self-restraint). Afterwards, if you read
verse 48:29, it is clear that Muslims were just hard, harsh, strong, fierce, stubborn, vehement and severe against unbelievers
of Makkah (48:29) who were in turn hard, harsh, strong, fierce, stubborn, vehement and severe against Muslims (48:25-26).
You have to read in context the whole chapter. The whole chapter is speaking about an upcoming victory of Muslims. And
Muslims were only ordained to be hard against those unbelievers who were willing to harm them. I hope this explanation is
enough for you. Let me know if you require some more description for better understanding.
Hoping to hear from you soon.
SK
iandonlyi posted:
Suhail wrote:
Again you are telling me the same old story that I had already retorted in my last two posts. The difference you do not find
between the translations except the word 'ruthless' can be replaced with hard, harsh or strong; is actually a valid disparity in
Arabic Language which you seemed to deny deliberately. In the world of rational thinking this is absurdity. You may not seem
to accept the structural categorization of Arabic language and perceiving the meanings with the scale of your own which in this
case is ‘English’. Meaning, again you are doing your own translations and interpretations. As I have said before twice and I am
saying again that 'ruthless' in Arabic Language falls under different category and it is no where depicts the notion you are
trying to impose forcefully. This particular verse is no where depicting Muslims as ruthless to non-believers; but they are hard
and stead fast against their demeanor towards Muslims and they are not wax that the non-believers may mold them as they
like; they can neither be cowed nor purchased by any inducement. If some one misunderstood this particular verse then it is
the problem of his intellect and not this verse is violent.
Suhail yes ofcourse I dont understand Arabic and its structural categorization because Arabic is no where close to English.
And if what you say is the case then Islam should only be practiced by people who know Arabic. That was one point and the
second point is that you also dont seem to understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that fine, let's forget about
RUTHLESS, in fact let's forget that word exists. But instead of "Ruthless" you replace with anything and that verse still sounds
racist towards non-muslims. Which is not acceptable. And please do not try to change the meaning of this verse. You are
making it sound like Non-muslims have been unfair to Muslims and so Muslims have to be hard with them. Where in this verse
does it say that? Muslims have been most unfair to non-muslims anywhre in the world and you are trying to play victim? BS.
Not acceptable. The only thing I dont know is whether a good Muslim like yourself is as guilty of atrocities on non-muslims as
bad Muslims like OBL?
I am pretty much aware that people from other religions when locate bogus verses in their holy books and when they are not
able to defend them they just show their disbelief and move on. Every person in every religion is unique; whenever we try to
corner them using their own 'Holy Scriptures' they run away blabbering that "I do not believe in this" and "I do not believe in
that". I can put your good self as a perfect example befitting this. Afterwards, they deem that the same absurdity is present in
every religion on the face of the earth. However, as I have said before that Muslims do not believe their Quran to be fallible
and we do not really require to 'run away' from the truth as well. Therefore, why are you forcing us to believe in this kind of
absurdity? If you think that you have a tumor then why do you deem that Muslims must have the same?
This exactly is the problem of muslims. You dont BELIEVE Koran could have any verse that could be fallible. And belief, even if
worst, is very hard to fight, aint it? Why am I even hitting my head on walls? But I shall keep trying. It is not belief my friend but
it is hard headeadness and false pride in the belief you follow.
So because other people can admit their own mistakes and you cant makes them false and you right? I thought it should be
other way around?
Regarding Muslims misunderstood some of the verses in Quran; Yes! I believe this. But it was foolish of you to measure more
than a billion Muslims into the same category as compared to few Muslims who misunderstood. If your brother is a menace to
society, will it be a justice from my side to paint whole family of yours as a danger? What will you do to your brother then? You
will expel him from your family if he is not willing to change and keep understanding the 'misunderstood'. It is your media who is
making such 'misunderstood' Muslims famous. It is again Western media who is clinging such 'misunderstood' Muslims to the
world of Islam. It is your problem that you heed to non-Muslims interpretation of Islamic Scriptures rather than listening to
authentic Scholars of Islam. It was made evident by your good self as well by location from where you had pulled out the verse
in question right now. There are two distinct groups at war in the world right now; one is lead by personal gain and other by
religion. If 1.5 billion Muslims were to adhere to 'True Islamic interpretations' of clowns like Ali Sina, then brother it is impossible
that you could still be living. We could have killed you long before and could have easily justified our actions from our Holy
Books. What ever some 'misunderstood' Muslims are doing in the world is wrong and their actions do not reflect the real Islam
that we have been taught. Whatever Hitler did; I cannot label Christianity as a barbaric religion. Same thing applies to Islam as
well. I cannot label Islam as a ruthless faith because 'Javed Iqbal' killed 100 children, ate them and put their remains in an acid.
I cannot label Judaism a merciless religion because Menachem Begin had blood of scores of innocent people on his collar. I
cannot label Hinduism a pitiless religion because hindus killed Muslims in Gujrat. This is wrong and illogical. Therefore you do
not judge faiths by deeds of some people; look at their scriptures of what actually they preach. Look at the roots and not the
branches. Even branches can become stale while the root is intact. Similarly, same decree fix to George Bush and Osama Bin
Laden as well. You give us examples of some 'misunderstood' Muslims and they automatically reform into 'ALL MUSLIMS' by
western media. Muslims are not angels, we are humans. Humans just like you. We have bad people and good people in our
community. However, if some one is willing to reveal BAD people only and they have good means to do it (media), then we
cannot do anything about it. And yes! Burden of proof is on us and no where in my posts I have denied accepting this
responsibility. At least I was asking from you to think deeper and concentrate on my evidence; which I seemed you have
misconstrued completely. It seems to me that you lack apt intellect in understanding technicalities of languages; therefore,
from now onwards I will just keep you on the surface of understanding.
Okay finally, good and fair enough. But have I anywhere said that all Muslims are terrorists? Tell me if I have somewhere
please. I would like to see my own hypocracy.
You still dont understand the point of this debate. The point is that these verses are being misunderstood and it is causing
problems. No religion is greater than human life and peace. Please remove, change or clear out these verses so you and I
and all of us can live in peace.
About, your example of "My brother being a menace to society" the difference between your thinking and mine is that if my
brother is a menace then ofcourse no one can blame whole family but it does become a duty of a family to fix what made my
brother a menace. If they are terrorists and terrorizing in the name of Islam then who is going to fix it? It is your duty. You cant
just walk away from it and leave it to the rest of the world to worry about. It is only your duty to fix that not others. And you are
trying to get away by saying that 1 billion muslims should not be blamed for the actions for few, but they are being blamed, you
know why? Because it is the mosques that is producing these terrorists and what is mosque? Mosque is a religion place of
Worship of MUSLIMS and who are Muslims? Muslims are people who follow ISLAM. So who should people point finger to? If
they were being produced by a political party then this debate would've been against that political party like ETA or IRA etc.
You see the difference?
About the rest of your reply. what the rest of the verses are saying is not my problem. why or how that verse came about is not
my problem. I am already giving it to you and Islam that Islam is great religion. I am not here to downgrade religion but I am
here to upgrade humanity. And Humanity is in deep *** because some bastards cant understand, maybe, as much as you? So
it is your(Muslim's) duty to fix that ***.
Please dont throw your garbage at us to fix. It is your garbage and so it is your responsibility. No one is saying all Muslims are
terrorists but I am saying that Islamic terrorists are responsibility of Muslims so good muslims like yourself should take it and do
whatever is required. In my opinion, you guys need to change some verses but if you think Koran is infallible then find another
way to fix it but, FIX IT.
Do you see me arging with a Buddhist, for example? I am not but I am arguing with a Muslim? Why? Think about that? Let me
say this again to let you feel better. No one has time to Insult your religion or your prophet or Allah. But they do, why? I mean if
people were bad they would insult all, No? But they dont, they insult you and your belief. Can you even remotely think that is is
possible that you and whatever you do might be responsible for this behavior of people, even if it is 50%?
My Response:
Dear Brother Iandonlyi,
Hoping that you are in the best of your health.
And if what you say is the case then Islam should only be practiced by people who know Arabic.
Brother! What were you reckoning when you jot down this declaration? I am earnestly feeling mortified in countering such
arguments; however, let me bring you into some light. When you desire to know about plants, you learn botany; when you
ache for knowledge about animals, you learn zoology. Similarly, if you have a craving of comprehending Islam then learning
Arabic is part of it. This is unpretentious and acceptable logic. I have never witnessed any soul other than your good self, ever
brought up such issues in my life. Congratulations on being the first one.
And please do not try to change the meaning of this verse. You are making it sound like Non-muslims have been unfair to
Muslims and so Muslims have to be hard with them. Where in this verse does it say that?
Brother! Now you have abandoned my evidence WITHOUT providing your proofs or acceptable logic. You alleged that I
attempted to ‘revolutionize’ the true meaning of the verse; this is again your yapping with out any evidence. PROVIDE ME THE
PROOF WHERE I HAVE ALTERED THE MEANING OF THE VERSE. Show me some bites behind your barks. Bring me any
Islamic Scholar who negates the way of interpretation that I actually did. This is inanity from your side where you rebuff my
evidences devoid of putting forth any acceptable logic or any evidence. This is not tolerable.
I only put forth the filthiest practices of populace like Ali Sina where they ‘always’ bring in their contentions against Islam by
quoting ‘OUT OF CONTEXT’. Look what actually happens when you quote out of context. Let me bring in front of you some of
your own sayings:
“Muslims were living in the world peacefully like the rest of non-muslims”. Isn’t this your statement? So if you really consider
this conception then why are you having a debate with me?
“I will leave and debate is over”. This is again what you had stated in your post. Now it is your choice and if you do not want to
continue this discussion you are welcome.
“muslims are equal to non-muslims”. I believe this perception and I appreciate dearly that at last you have faith in it as well.
“Non-muslims have been unfair to Muslims”. This is what I was striving to elaborate all along in this debate. Thanks that you
have already identified.
“all Muslims are terrorists”. But you said that ‘some’ of the Muslims are terrorists.
Now it must be lucid to you that how meanings vary when you cite something out of context. Aren’t these your own statements?
However, how do they imply when being stated out of context? This is what actually you people do with Quran. One sentence
removed out of its paragraph could imply a hell lot of things and completely opposite when put back in its paragraph. I can
pluck out several statements of yours from your own posts and make it a justification of my 'victory' over you in this precise
debate. For example you said,
“I will leave and debate is over”.
This is a valid justification of your withdrawal from this debate from your own mouth. Isn’t it? Therefore if you pluck out this
particular verse from its respective chapter; then it gives you a different meaning and when put back it will make your world
upside down.
Muslims have been most unfair to non-muslims anywhre in the world and you are trying to play victim? BS. Not acceptable.
The only thing I dont know is whether a good Muslim like yourself is as guilty of atrocities on non-muslims as bad Muslims like
OBL?
I am not aware why are you bringing all these issues in this precise discussion whereas I had already replied before. Can’t you
just understand what I tried to elaborate in my earlier posts, or are you so dumb? You are repeating the same old stories
again and again without even bringing in your contentions against my replies. All of your replies do not even consist of any
evidence or acceptable logic; besides you are repeating the same old story. Are you that immature brother? You sound like a
broken player where it is stuck on one statement “Muslims are unfair to non-Muslims”. For answer to your ‘million year old’
story go back to my earlier posts and swallow all of them properly.
So because other people can admit their own mistakes and you cant makes them false and you right? I thought it should be
other way around?
My earlier statement still holds good here: “If you think that you have a tumor then why do you deem that Muslims must have
the same?” Why would I admit when I haven’t done anything bad yet? See the fallacy of your argument. We are talking about
Holy Scriptures and you are talking about people. And I have already clarified this notion that I am not going to follow the
followers, rather follow the Holy Scriptures. Otherwise, do not let me loose if you want me to follow the follower. You will surely
forget about Muslims and Islam when I bring forth the ‘real’ followers from other religions. Again I have clarified every
contention of yours in my earlier posts.
But have I anywhere said that all Muslims are terrorists? Tell me if I have somewhere please. I would like to see my own
hypocracy.
Brother! Again you have misunderstood. Read the whole paragraph ‘in context’ and as a whole. ‘You’, as used by me is
actually addressed to general people who deem like you. It was not actually you.
You still dont understand the point of this debate. The point is that these verses are being misunderstood and it is causing
problems. No religion is greater than human life and peace. Please remove, change or clear out these verses so you and I
and all of us can live in peace.
Brother, let me bring forth the fallacy of your argument; once again. You are telling us to change the syllabus of Mathematics
because in a classroom of 50 students only 5 have misunderstood ‘some parts’ of it and failed their exams. And you do not
hanker after coaching those 5 students the accurate Mathematics; rather you are willing to change the syllabus. Or in the
worst case scenario expel them from the class if they are still not willing to heed. Later what is actually done by ‘Muslims’? Isn’t
it?
About, your example of "My brother being a menace to society" the difference between your thinking and mine is that if my
brother is a menace then ofcourse no one can blame whole family but it does become a duty of a family to fix what made my
brother a menace.
Again, you did not read my earlier reply carefully. I said, “if he is not willing to change and keep understanding the
'misunderstood'”.
Brother! I am tired now in replying to your repetitive stories. The only imperative thing I found in you post is where you said,
“And please do not try to change the meaning of this verse. You are making it sound like Non-muslims have been unfair to
Muslims and so Muslims have to be hard with them. Where in this verse does it say that?” Now please if you can enlighten me
that why did you not agree to my interpretation of this verse which is also in harmony with Islamic Scholars?
Bring in your logics, correct interpretation or any bona fide authority in support of your day-dreaming. Besides joining hands
with us in comprehending the correct and widely accepted interpretation of Quran and educating those ‘misunderstood’
Muslims, you chose to defy us. To which group are you with, brother? Are you with us or not? If not, then there is no difference
between you and those ‘misunderstood’ Muslims. They also did not heed to the correct interpretation of Quran and you are
doing the same.
Kindest regards.
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