Nadir Ahmed's Response:
dude.... listen.... you aint no scholar in Islam, you’re a "POSER"... you don’t even have the prerequisites of being a scholar..
have you mastered the Arabic language?? Have you mastered any of the disciplines of the Islamic sciences, fiqh, or
jurisprudence? Do you have a letter of recommendation from an accredited Islamic University verifying that you are a master
of a particular field?
The TRUE scholars have responded to people like you, who go around the ignorant masses, passing themselves off as
"Islamic Experts".... and have simply stated...
" The scholars are who the scholars say are the scholars...."
and everyone knows who the scholars are, even, they are in their gatherings, and at times they refute them....... right? Here
are some:
http://islaam.com/Scholars.aspx
I don’t see you name there Ali lol :)
Rather, Ali Sina, what you are, is a garbage man. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk. You recycle garbage. The material on
your website is simply a "cut and paste" from other websites, you simply recycle and polish the material and display it on your
website. That’s all. Recycling garbage does not make a person a scholar. The truth is, people like you are a dime a dozen...
But that doesn't mean that your website is useless. In today's world there is a great want for people like Ali Sina.. there are
many bigots and hate mongers who have extreme hatred and loath for Islam, they would like nothing more to rekindle the fire
of the crusades and they need some kind of outlet. Ali Sina gives provides exactly that.. and caters to that crowd... here is an
example of an Ali Sina fan who just wrote this post on his website forums:
"I try to interprete Islam in a language that nigger Muslims understand. As far as I am concerned all Muslims are lowest of the
breed." (Ali Sina)
in addition to that, I invite you to visit yahoo Islam chat room, or paltalk social issues room, there you will find many Ali Sina's
clientele... "high" off Ali Sina's website, frothing at the mouth, hurling all kind of slurs at Muslims from nigger to camel fu@#&r.,
"throw all the Muslims out of America!! posting www.faithfreedom.org everywhere....and it is a big market out there... But that
does not mean that Ali has the same intent has his audience, he stated that his intentions are different.. So, you see, its all
bout supply and demand. That’s all. Now I will respond to your "refutation" of the evidences for the Quran and Science. As
God is my witness, it had to have been one of the worst refutations I have ever read...I mean.. . Ali.... this is realllllly bad..
I would like to point out that it is a prerequisite to first listen to the Ahmed-Giron debate on Quran and Science which is located
on my website: www.ExamineTheTruth.com
To put Ali Sina's refutation in a nutshell, he basically said, that all the scientific statements in the Quran were ALL
coincidences and good guesses. And he gave some examples of hypothetical possible scenarios of how these alleged
coincidences may have occurred.
these arguments were clearly refuted in the debate, infact, I was the one who bought them up, and I even went so far as to
provide the human possibilities for these statements which matched up with modern science!! here they are again:
IF Statement = Scientific fact THEN
(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)
A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genius
B. A very good guess, luck
C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great scientist
D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened to match
up with science),luck, and the author had no intention of talking
about science; it was an accident. No intention.
E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow)
F. The scientific fact is observable.
G. The information already pre-existed in history
(this can only be entertained if we have historical errors)
H. A source greater than man was involved
I also refuted the possibilities of all these scientific arguments being coincidences or lucky guesses:
1. Bee = 1/2
2. Iram = 1/500,000
3. Barrier between the seas = 1/500,000
4. Barrier between salt and fresh waters= 1/500,000
5. complete darkness in the deep ocean = 1/500,000
6. Lowest point on earth = 1/500,000
7. Iron = 1/500,000
8. Orbit = 1/500,000
Therefore, the chances of all 8 scientific statements being
a coincidence is the following:
1/2 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 = 1/3.5 *10^36
What if we say that the following 8 scientific statements in the Quran were all the product of a good guess, then the following
would be the probability:
1. Bee = 1/2
2. Iram = 1/10,000
3. Barrier between the seas = 1/10,000
4. Barrier between salt and fresh waters= 1/10,000
5. complete darkness in the deep ocean = 1/10,000
6. Lowest point on earth = 1/10,000
7. Iron = 1/10,000
8. Orbit = 1/10,000
1/2 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 = 1/2.0 *10^28
ALI SINA DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO REFUTE MY ARGUMENT!!!!!
Smart people who have listened to the debate realize that you CAN NOT pass off all of the scientific statements as guesswork
and coincidence, look what one of Ali Sina's fans who listened to the debate said:
Spinoza:
"I listened to Denis Giron's debate and I thought the argument of 'chance' was rather ridiculous"
here is a smart kid, he knows the pit falls that lie ahead... I only wish Ali Sina had the same common sense :) , so I will simply
be repeating my arguments... perhaps, the next time around Ali will attempt to refute them. This is going to be a cakewalk.....
Quran and Bees....
"You have chosen a few verses from the Quran and reinterpreted them to correlate with the modern science" (Ali Sina)
the same charge was made by Denis in the debate as a "hail marry" attempt because he was losing the debate, so I came
back and challenged him to show me where? He could not. Perhaps you can?
"Aristotle observed that the brood of drones appear even when there is no ruler bee in the hive. This is an accurate
observation. As we know today, unfertilized female workers can lay eggs in the absence of a queen, but the eggs develop into
drones. Aristotle gave a fairly accurate description of the bees with only few mistakes like confusing the gender of the Queen
and calling it the King." (Ali Sina)
So, where did you learn this fact about Aristotle? ME! that’s where lol,I have already refuted this argument in my debate!
Rather than addressing my refutation, you can back and simply restated the objection!!!!!!! omg
Therefore, LET ME REPEAT MYSELF!!! The point I made in the debate, which you were suppose to respond to, was that
were the following:
1. Showing a scientific statement already pre-existed in history means nothing. As I have already explained, how did the author
of the Quran know to select this explanations versus the other wrong explanations which pre existed in history... the books of
antiquity are riddled with scientific errors! How did the author of the Quran know to select this piece of truth, in an ocean of
falsehood and myths?
For example, if a person were to copy from his neighbor on test day because he did not study for the test, he runs a risk of still
flunking! Because if his neighbor did not study, then he will be coping the wrong answers to his test paper, along with some
correct answers. So, likewise doing a copy job in the 6th century, is an even more dangerous job, because the books
available are riddled with myths and legends!
Therefore, if someone were to say that the Quran was a copy job of Aristotle, then he must also show where the author the
Quran also copied the scientific ERRORS in Aristotle's book, here is an example of some of the scientific errors pertaining to
bees in Aristotle’s book:
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artaug98/mdcard.html
(where honey comb is made from)
Aristotle’s errors on bees:
1. Aristotle thought that the queen bee was actually a MALE.
2. bees do not give birth to young but fetch their young from flowers
(bees are actually grown from eggs)
3. bees come from olives?
4. honeycomb is made from flowers (it is made of wax)
5. wax comes from the gum of trees (it comes from wax glands of the bees)
6. female bees do not sting, because nature does not provide females with weapons", i.e., sting
Unless you can show one of these scientific errors in the Quran pertaining to bees in the Quran, then you can not accuse the
author of the Quran of coping. Another logical error is that people attempt to show alleged scientific errors which are not in
Aristotle’s books to accuse the author of the Quran of coping! Nevertheless, their are no scientific errors in the Quran
Since we see that NONE of these scientific errors pertaining to bees from Aristotle are in the Quran, therefore the author of
the Quran DID NOT plagiarize from Aristotle.
"All Arabs used the same word even before Muhammad" (Ali Sina)
Yes, but not but the point which I was making was that the CORRECT roles were given to the female bee a word which was
used by all Arabs.....
In conclusion, the books available to Prophet Muhammed(P) said that the worker bee was male, some books said female, and
some said both. Which one is correct?? Which books should I choose ?
Therefore, as you can see, Ali Sina refuted NOTHING!! All I have done here is repeat my ORIGINAL argument!! Ali didn’t even
attempt to try and refute my argument :)
Therefore, here are the 3 take home points of the issues of bees which have gone UNCHALLENGED!!
1. The Quran is scientifically accurate as far as the role of the female bees.
2. No evidence exists of plagiarism.
3. If we were to say the author of the Quran guessed, or it was a coincidence, than the probability is 1/2 (actually 1/3 but I want
to go easy on you guys) .....
#3 is the most important argument here... because if you say this was a guess, I have 7 more "guesses" .... you know what
that means?
1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2
yes, you got it FACTORING! So, you be very careful and use this explanation sparingly :) You don’t want the probability of all
these statements to be guesses to be so high, that it is impossible :). To say that these scientific statements were all guess
and coincidences is ultimate disaster for the atheist, because of the probability involved. And you better believe I’m going to
pull out my calculator and do the math in the end....these were there the arguments which Ali Sina was suppose to refute but
he did not
City of Iram
"The destruction of a city is a big event. It is obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their descendants." (Ali
Sina)
If that logic was true... then that means we have a record of EVERY destroyed city from the time of Adam, which would go back
BILLIONS of years ago, I would like to ask Ali Sina to please provide for us that list :)
"Who said no books prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram?" (Ali Sina)
All researchers agree on this. National Geographic did an article on Iram, and the only reference they came up with which
mentioned this city was the Quran. One of the critics of the Qur'an (Wellhausen) stated that Iram was a fictional place. If Ali
knows of a book before the Quran which states Iram as a city, please do share.
Please also read what I wrote about this "borrowing" allegation that I just wrote above. But, I really don’t have a problem with
this hypothetical possibility, because when I calculate the probability of SELECTIVELY CHOOSING the name of a city which the
world does not know from a book, only to be discovered 1400 years later through archaeological find... the number will kill
you... :) and to add insult to injury, I will multiply that number with 1/2 (from the bee), math is a bi@#@ isn't it?
"Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book prior
to Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books." (Ali Sina)
What the..... this is a complete LIE !!!!!!! Now, Ali Sina, by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar just like Robert
Morey:
(http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm)
I am challenging you.... to show your evidence for this statement which you have made, if you can not, then this will expose
you as a liar once and for all. rather, what we have several examples of PRE ISLAMIC POETRY:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/poetry.html
http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/arabic/bonnah.htm
Now, Ali Sina, you have stated:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm
"I invite you to disprove my accusations of Muhammad and Islam. If you can show that what I say is unfounded I promise to
remove this site not before confessing that I was wrong and Islam is a true religion. " (Ali Sina)
Therefore, if you can not provide evidence that the Prophet Muhammed did what you accused him of, then I would like for you
to fulfill your promise.... and take this website down
"The tales of Iram with its lofty pillars must have been in the lore of the people of Arabia"
This is your self self-delusion. Scholars have researched this, and have come up with nothing. THERE IS NO BOOK OTHER
THAN THE QURAN WHICH MENTIONS IRAM.
"and the way Muhammad casually mentions it with no further explanation is clear that
his audience already knew what he is taking about. "
petitio principii. Your premises are as false as your conclusion. The Quran does not state that you are supposed to know
every thing mentioned in this book. This is a false assertion. Rather, the Quran states the exact OPPOSITE of what you are
saying, the Quran clearly states that there are things about this book which will not be known to you:
3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they
are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments, etc.), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties)
and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in
whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah
(polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings
save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses)
are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabarî).
Therefore, my points stand unrefuted:
1. The Quran mentions a city named Iram, and this city was later discovered 1400 years later during an archaeological find.
2. I have no problem accepting that the false assertion that the author of the Quran plagiarized from another source, even
though, you have not provided a single shred of evidence.. the reason why is because you are not exempt from the math! So
here is my probability on any person SELECTIVELY CHOOSING a city which the world does not know of from a book, and that
city being discovered later in an archaeological dig..
how does.... 1/10,000 sound? Using the Subjective theory of probability. But if you would like me to go lower no problem, I will
accept any reasonable assessment.
So, here is what we have:
1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/20,000
The same holds true for coincidence, and guess.
Quran and barriers.
"anyone going to the sea watching sweet waters carrying sediments flowing into the salty waters of the ocean can see they do
not mix immediately" (Ali Sina)
It is a known fact that there is NO VISIBLE BARRIER between salt and fresh water.. but I don’t have a problem with your
hypothetical scenario, therefore, what you are saying, is that the author of the Quran meant to describe sediments flowing into
the ocean, BUT BY COINCIDENCE, he left out of the Quran that he was observing sediment, and by COINCIDENCE, this verse
matches up with a scientific fact which researchers have only come to know today, that there is a barrier between salt and
fresh water. What do you think the probability of that is??
You see, critics are literally hanging themselves with a rope when they come up with these silly little stories... it is working
against them! Because they forget that every time they raise an issue of coincidence, MATHMETICS IS AUTOMATICALLY
INVOLVED! The more stories they can come up with, the more they dig themselves in a hole...
"Sailors must have noticed more buoyancy of their boats in the salty waters of the sea than when they were navigating in
rivers and lakes of sweet water" (Ali Sina)
Another hypothetical COINCIDENCE that it matches up with science?
probability.... probability...... probability....
"Waters that have different salinity, density and temperature do not mix readily, however they do eventually. But Muhammad
states that there is a barrier between them and a partition that is forbidden to be passed. This is of course not true." (Ali Sina)
We are not talking about waters that have different salinity, rather we are talking about a barrier between fresh and salt
waters..this barrier has been illustrated here:
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/miracles.html#Qur'an%20on%20Seas%20and%20Rivers:
as we know, there are many different types of barriers, for example, there are radiating barrier, Iron curtain barriers, leaky
barriers..etc. The Quran does not state what TYPE of barrier, and the ambiguous phrase, forbidding, inviolable barrier
(barzakhan wahijran mahjooran) does not tell us what TYPE of barrier.
"Muhammad must have heard about this phenomenon but his knowledge was not complete and he assumed that the waters
never mix. " (Ali Sina)
Total baseless assumption, show us proof of what you are saying if you are truthful.
"That is why he is talking of barriers between the seas. There is no such barrier at all and all waters do mix. " (Ali Sina)
This is a false statement, there is indeed a barrier between the seas.. science has confirmed this:
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/miracles.html#Qur'an%20on%20Seas%20and%20Rivers:
but is also important to point out that the Quran does not state what TYPE of barrier(radiating barrier, Iron curtain barriers,
leaky barriers..etc.). Therefore, here is the conclusion:
1. Quran accurately affirms that there are barriers between the seas and and between fresh and salt water.
2. To sum up what Ali states, he passes it off as a coincidence.. I am willing to hold this as a possibility, but we would need to
calculate the probability of this coincidence, and multiply it with the Ali Sina's other probabilities he cited:
1/2 X 1/10,000 X 1/10,000
3. Ali's attempt to show scientific error was thwarted.
Quran and Darkness of the Ocean
"Isn’t this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive into the water to know that the deeper you go the darker it becomes" (Ali
Sina)
You obviously seem lost here... from the very beginning of my debate, I said I would entertain all possibilities, in fact, I even
gave you all the logical possibilities:
IF Statement = Scientific fact THEN
(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)
A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genius
B. A very good guess, luck
C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great scientist
D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened to match
up with science),luck, and the author had no intention of talking
about science; it was an accident. No intention.
E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow)
F. The scientific fact is observable.
G. The information already pre-existed in history
(this can only be entertained if we have historical errors)
H. A source greater than man was involved
All you have done thus far is give examples of A-G , nothing else. Therefore, you are refuting nothing. Anyhow, you are
saying, that the author of the Quran saw light getting less, then made a correct guess, that out of the following possibilities:
A. at the very bottom it will be completely dark
B. the ground is refracting the light back
C. there is a point of equilibrium of light meaning the amount
of light stays constant the rest of the way down.
D. A shade of light must always exist, because HOW CAN FISH SEE WHERE THEY ARE GOING WITHOUT LIGHT?
HOW CAN PLANTS ON THE BOTTOM GROW WITH OUT LIGHT????????
So, as you can see, there are at least 4 possibilities. It would be common sense for a person to pick D , but I will be agreeable
with Ali here, and put the GUESS as 1/4 probability.
1/2 X 1/10,000 X 1/10,000 X 1/4
Iron sent down to earth
"The verse actually should not be taken literally. In this verse Muhammad is saying that we sent you everything that you need
including iron with which has mighty power i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not mean that the iron, among all
the elements, is the only element that has descended from the heaven" (Ali Sina)
What you are saying is a possibility, BUT CAN NOT BE PROVEN TRUE. But if what you are saying is true, then, this will fall
under the category of COINCIDENCE. And as you know, coincidence, is a bizarre accident.
"In Muhammad's language everything is "sent' to man by God and that is the meaning of this word andalna here" (Ali Sina)
This is FALSE. Man, Ali, you aint no scholar! No scholar would make such a stupid statement... the truth is..
First, The word is NOT andalna rather the word is anZalna, I don’t know of any word in the arabic dictionary "andalna" perhaps
you can go to the Hans Weir dictionary and show me? :) Another point, this error of yours tells me that you don’t know Arabic,
Mastery of the Arabic language is a prerequisite to becoming a scholar pal......the Quran mentions things which are from the
earth, and things which are not from the earth, here are some things which the earth produces according to the Quran:
36:36. Glory be to Him, Who has created all the pairs of that which the earth produces, as well as of their own (human) kind
(male and female), and of that which they know not so human beings are from earth:
71:17 . And Allâh has brought you forth from the (dust of) earth.
[Tafsir At-Tabarî, Vol.29, Page 97]. but it does not talk about the individual elements. A human is a composition of the many
elements which have settled on the earth, but the Quran does not say where those elements come from.
"He did not mean that God sent the iron from they sky but since the giver of the iron is God so the verb nadala is used." (Ali
Sina)
A statement with Absolutely NO proof, what Ali Sina is doing here, is just showing another hypothetical scenario of a
COINCIDENCE. that’s all....
"Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that the energy required to create one atom of iron equals several times the
energy stored in the sun." (Ali Sina)
You careless idiot, I did NOT say that.. rather I said to create one atom of Iron takes about 4 times as much energy of our
SOLAR SYSTEM. Do me a favor, STOP MISQUOTING ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Conclusion:
1. This statement of the Quran matches up with Science 100% . Science does indeed tell us that Iron could not have been
created by the earth, rather it had to have been sent down.
2. Ali, suggests but can not prove that it MAY BE a bizarre COICIDENCE, and you know what that means....... you got it!
PROBABILITY!!!!!! How does 1/500,000 sound?
Quran and Orbits
"Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and the Moon follow a fixed orbit" (Ali Sina)
False. Many different cultures had different explanations for the sun and moon, like birth and death, and all kinds of stuff..
here is an example:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0917/p18s01-hfgn.html
"The Quran is talking about neither the actual orbit of the sun around the central star of the Milky Way that takes 226 million
years nor the orbit of the moon around the Earth that takes 29 days. Muhammad is talking about the "perceived" orbit of these
objects that takes 24 hours. " (Ali Sina)
A statement with Absolutely NO proof, what Ali Sina is doing here, is just showing another hypothetical scenario of a
COINCIDENCE. that’s all.... Nevertheless, it is a hypothetical possibility...
From this point on, this wild-eyed fanatic Ali Sina flies off in a frenzy.. spinning his own personal interpretations, building straw
man, and reading into the Quran what is NOT their, I think someone needs to call in his nurse so he can be sedated. Let me
respond to just a few of this lunatic’s rantings:
"Dr. Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and did not think you are worth his time. You go around claiming you have
defeated him? How you have defeated him when he did not even dignify you with a response? " (Ali Sina)
You idiot, you are making a complete fool out of yourself, here is his response:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_response.htm
but look here … see how Ali Sina idolizes and looks up to a known pathological liar!!!
Birds of the same feather flock together…
Ali, you make this too easy for me. :)
"You try to debate with some recognized names on the net and even though they do not respond to you add them to your
portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who you really are" (Ali Sina)
For God sake take your medication, you are not coherent, man, you are making a complete ass out of yourself and I’m loving
every minute of it... :). If you see my website, I have a public debate for all those so called "big names" between me and them
on my website, and future debates are on the way… as for Robert Morey, he is toast. My article on him has damaged him
irrevocably. The really cool thing is MANY of his fans are writing me and agreeing with me that he is a liar.. currently I have 2
radio shows which both me and Robert Morey have been invited to debate... Morey is aware of them.. let’s hope he accepts...
and as for debating Morey, I believe he said yes, but I have fill out some kind of paper work, and get a letter from my Imaam lol
lol lol
"claiming to have won when we did not even start to debate" (Ali Sina)
what did I tell you? You didn’t listen to me, I told you DO NOT LIE ON ME. Where did I say I have won?? ( before you make an
ass out of yourself again, a knock down is not the same thing as a knock out.. right?) Where did I say I have won, Ali? I warned
you to stop your lying, But by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar, just like Robert Morey, and I believe my
mission is accomplished here in this post, what you have demonstrated, even when I gave you fair warning, you still could not
stop lying... because this is your nature.
Don’t forget, you must show us proof for the following statement:
"Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book prior
to Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books." (Ali Sina)
If you can not come up with the evidence, you promised to shut down your filthy website. Remember these wise words:
Birds of the same feather flock together..
And as for your claim, Prophet Muhammed ((PBUH) is a truthful person and not a liar like you Ali Sina, you bum :-)
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
End of Part 2 ...
[Intro] [Part 1] [Part 2] [Part 3] [Part 4]
Back to the section of Nadir Ahmed
Send Email to Nadir Ahmed
dude.... listen.... you aint no scholar in Islam, you’re a "POSER"... you don’t even have the prerequisites of being a scholar..
have you mastered the Arabic language?? Have you mastered any of the disciplines of the Islamic sciences, fiqh, or
jurisprudence? Do you have a letter of recommendation from an accredited Islamic University verifying that you are a master
of a particular field?
The TRUE scholars have responded to people like you, who go around the ignorant masses, passing themselves off as
"Islamic Experts".... and have simply stated...
" The scholars are who the scholars say are the scholars...."
and everyone knows who the scholars are, even, they are in their gatherings, and at times they refute them....... right? Here
are some:
http://islaam.com/Scholars.aspx
I don’t see you name there Ali lol :)
Rather, Ali Sina, what you are, is a garbage man. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk. You recycle garbage. The material on
your website is simply a "cut and paste" from other websites, you simply recycle and polish the material and display it on your
website. That’s all. Recycling garbage does not make a person a scholar. The truth is, people like you are a dime a dozen...
But that doesn't mean that your website is useless. In today's world there is a great want for people like Ali Sina.. there are
many bigots and hate mongers who have extreme hatred and loath for Islam, they would like nothing more to rekindle the fire
of the crusades and they need some kind of outlet. Ali Sina gives provides exactly that.. and caters to that crowd... here is an
example of an Ali Sina fan who just wrote this post on his website forums:
"I try to interprete Islam in a language that nigger Muslims understand. As far as I am concerned all Muslims are lowest of the
breed." (Ali Sina)
in addition to that, I invite you to visit yahoo Islam chat room, or paltalk social issues room, there you will find many Ali Sina's
clientele... "high" off Ali Sina's website, frothing at the mouth, hurling all kind of slurs at Muslims from nigger to camel fu@#&r.,
"throw all the Muslims out of America!! posting www.faithfreedom.org everywhere....and it is a big market out there... But that
does not mean that Ali has the same intent has his audience, he stated that his intentions are different.. So, you see, its all
bout supply and demand. That’s all. Now I will respond to your "refutation" of the evidences for the Quran and Science. As
God is my witness, it had to have been one of the worst refutations I have ever read...I mean.. . Ali.... this is realllllly bad..
I would like to point out that it is a prerequisite to first listen to the Ahmed-Giron debate on Quran and Science which is located
on my website: www.ExamineTheTruth.com
To put Ali Sina's refutation in a nutshell, he basically said, that all the scientific statements in the Quran were ALL
coincidences and good guesses. And he gave some examples of hypothetical possible scenarios of how these alleged
coincidences may have occurred.
these arguments were clearly refuted in the debate, infact, I was the one who bought them up, and I even went so far as to
provide the human possibilities for these statements which matched up with modern science!! here they are again:
IF Statement = Scientific fact THEN
(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)
A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genius
B. A very good guess, luck
C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great scientist
D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened to match
up with science),luck, and the author had no intention of talking
about science; it was an accident. No intention.
E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow)
F. The scientific fact is observable.
G. The information already pre-existed in history
(this can only be entertained if we have historical errors)
H. A source greater than man was involved
I also refuted the possibilities of all these scientific arguments being coincidences or lucky guesses:
1. Bee = 1/2
2. Iram = 1/500,000
3. Barrier between the seas = 1/500,000
4. Barrier between salt and fresh waters= 1/500,000
5. complete darkness in the deep ocean = 1/500,000
6. Lowest point on earth = 1/500,000
7. Iron = 1/500,000
8. Orbit = 1/500,000
Therefore, the chances of all 8 scientific statements being
a coincidence is the following:
1/2 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 * 1/500,000 = 1/3.5 *10^36
What if we say that the following 8 scientific statements in the Quran were all the product of a good guess, then the following
would be the probability:
1. Bee = 1/2
2. Iram = 1/10,000
3. Barrier between the seas = 1/10,000
4. Barrier between salt and fresh waters= 1/10,000
5. complete darkness in the deep ocean = 1/10,000
6. Lowest point on earth = 1/10,000
7. Iron = 1/10,000
8. Orbit = 1/10,000
1/2 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 * 1/10,000 = 1/2.0 *10^28
ALI SINA DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO REFUTE MY ARGUMENT!!!!!
Smart people who have listened to the debate realize that you CAN NOT pass off all of the scientific statements as guesswork
and coincidence, look what one of Ali Sina's fans who listened to the debate said:
Spinoza:
"I listened to Denis Giron's debate and I thought the argument of 'chance' was rather ridiculous"
here is a smart kid, he knows the pit falls that lie ahead... I only wish Ali Sina had the same common sense :) , so I will simply
be repeating my arguments... perhaps, the next time around Ali will attempt to refute them. This is going to be a cakewalk.....
Quran and Bees....
"You have chosen a few verses from the Quran and reinterpreted them to correlate with the modern science" (Ali Sina)
the same charge was made by Denis in the debate as a "hail marry" attempt because he was losing the debate, so I came
back and challenged him to show me where? He could not. Perhaps you can?
"Aristotle observed that the brood of drones appear even when there is no ruler bee in the hive. This is an accurate
observation. As we know today, unfertilized female workers can lay eggs in the absence of a queen, but the eggs develop into
drones. Aristotle gave a fairly accurate description of the bees with only few mistakes like confusing the gender of the Queen
and calling it the King." (Ali Sina)
So, where did you learn this fact about Aristotle? ME! that’s where lol,I have already refuted this argument in my debate!
Rather than addressing my refutation, you can back and simply restated the objection!!!!!!! omg
Therefore, LET ME REPEAT MYSELF!!! The point I made in the debate, which you were suppose to respond to, was that
were the following:
1. Showing a scientific statement already pre-existed in history means nothing. As I have already explained, how did the author
of the Quran know to select this explanations versus the other wrong explanations which pre existed in history... the books of
antiquity are riddled with scientific errors! How did the author of the Quran know to select this piece of truth, in an ocean of
falsehood and myths?
For example, if a person were to copy from his neighbor on test day because he did not study for the test, he runs a risk of still
flunking! Because if his neighbor did not study, then he will be coping the wrong answers to his test paper, along with some
correct answers. So, likewise doing a copy job in the 6th century, is an even more dangerous job, because the books
available are riddled with myths and legends!
Therefore, if someone were to say that the Quran was a copy job of Aristotle, then he must also show where the author the
Quran also copied the scientific ERRORS in Aristotle's book, here is an example of some of the scientific errors pertaining to
bees in Aristotle’s book:
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artaug98/mdcard.html
(where honey comb is made from)
Aristotle’s errors on bees:
1. Aristotle thought that the queen bee was actually a MALE.
2. bees do not give birth to young but fetch their young from flowers
(bees are actually grown from eggs)
3. bees come from olives?
4. honeycomb is made from flowers (it is made of wax)
5. wax comes from the gum of trees (it comes from wax glands of the bees)
6. female bees do not sting, because nature does not provide females with weapons", i.e., sting
Unless you can show one of these scientific errors in the Quran pertaining to bees in the Quran, then you can not accuse the
author of the Quran of coping. Another logical error is that people attempt to show alleged scientific errors which are not in
Aristotle’s books to accuse the author of the Quran of coping! Nevertheless, their are no scientific errors in the Quran
Since we see that NONE of these scientific errors pertaining to bees from Aristotle are in the Quran, therefore the author of
the Quran DID NOT plagiarize from Aristotle.
"All Arabs used the same word even before Muhammad" (Ali Sina)
Yes, but not but the point which I was making was that the CORRECT roles were given to the female bee a word which was
used by all Arabs.....
In conclusion, the books available to Prophet Muhammed(P) said that the worker bee was male, some books said female, and
some said both. Which one is correct?? Which books should I choose ?
Therefore, as you can see, Ali Sina refuted NOTHING!! All I have done here is repeat my ORIGINAL argument!! Ali didn’t even
attempt to try and refute my argument :)
Therefore, here are the 3 take home points of the issues of bees which have gone UNCHALLENGED!!
1. The Quran is scientifically accurate as far as the role of the female bees.
2. No evidence exists of plagiarism.
3. If we were to say the author of the Quran guessed, or it was a coincidence, than the probability is 1/2 (actually 1/3 but I want
to go easy on you guys) .....
#3 is the most important argument here... because if you say this was a guess, I have 7 more "guesses" .... you know what
that means?
1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2
yes, you got it FACTORING! So, you be very careful and use this explanation sparingly :) You don’t want the probability of all
these statements to be guesses to be so high, that it is impossible :). To say that these scientific statements were all guess
and coincidences is ultimate disaster for the atheist, because of the probability involved. And you better believe I’m going to
pull out my calculator and do the math in the end....these were there the arguments which Ali Sina was suppose to refute but
he did not
City of Iram
"The destruction of a city is a big event. It is obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their descendants." (Ali
Sina)
If that logic was true... then that means we have a record of EVERY destroyed city from the time of Adam, which would go back
BILLIONS of years ago, I would like to ask Ali Sina to please provide for us that list :)
"Who said no books prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram?" (Ali Sina)
All researchers agree on this. National Geographic did an article on Iram, and the only reference they came up with which
mentioned this city was the Quran. One of the critics of the Qur'an (Wellhausen) stated that Iram was a fictional place. If Ali
knows of a book before the Quran which states Iram as a city, please do share.
Please also read what I wrote about this "borrowing" allegation that I just wrote above. But, I really don’t have a problem with
this hypothetical possibility, because when I calculate the probability of SELECTIVELY CHOOSING the name of a city which the
world does not know from a book, only to be discovered 1400 years later through archaeological find... the number will kill
you... :) and to add insult to injury, I will multiply that number with 1/2 (from the bee), math is a bi@#@ isn't it?
"Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book prior
to Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books." (Ali Sina)
What the..... this is a complete LIE !!!!!!! Now, Ali Sina, by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar just like Robert
Morey:
(http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm)
I am challenging you.... to show your evidence for this statement which you have made, if you can not, then this will expose
you as a liar once and for all. rather, what we have several examples of PRE ISLAMIC POETRY:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/poetry.html
http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/arabic/bonnah.htm
Now, Ali Sina, you have stated:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm
"I invite you to disprove my accusations of Muhammad and Islam. If you can show that what I say is unfounded I promise to
remove this site not before confessing that I was wrong and Islam is a true religion. " (Ali Sina)
Therefore, if you can not provide evidence that the Prophet Muhammed did what you accused him of, then I would like for you
to fulfill your promise.... and take this website down
"The tales of Iram with its lofty pillars must have been in the lore of the people of Arabia"
This is your self self-delusion. Scholars have researched this, and have come up with nothing. THERE IS NO BOOK OTHER
THAN THE QURAN WHICH MENTIONS IRAM.
"and the way Muhammad casually mentions it with no further explanation is clear that
his audience already knew what he is taking about. "
petitio principii. Your premises are as false as your conclusion. The Quran does not state that you are supposed to know
every thing mentioned in this book. This is a false assertion. Rather, the Quran states the exact OPPOSITE of what you are
saying, the Quran clearly states that there are things about this book which will not be known to you:
3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they
are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments, etc.), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties)
and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in
whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah
(polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings
save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses)
are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabarî).
Therefore, my points stand unrefuted:
1. The Quran mentions a city named Iram, and this city was later discovered 1400 years later during an archaeological find.
2. I have no problem accepting that the false assertion that the author of the Quran plagiarized from another source, even
though, you have not provided a single shred of evidence.. the reason why is because you are not exempt from the math! So
here is my probability on any person SELECTIVELY CHOOSING a city which the world does not know of from a book, and that
city being discovered later in an archaeological dig..
how does.... 1/10,000 sound? Using the Subjective theory of probability. But if you would like me to go lower no problem, I will
accept any reasonable assessment.
So, here is what we have:
1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/20,000
The same holds true for coincidence, and guess.
Quran and barriers.
"anyone going to the sea watching sweet waters carrying sediments flowing into the salty waters of the ocean can see they do
not mix immediately" (Ali Sina)
It is a known fact that there is NO VISIBLE BARRIER between salt and fresh water.. but I don’t have a problem with your
hypothetical scenario, therefore, what you are saying, is that the author of the Quran meant to describe sediments flowing into
the ocean, BUT BY COINCIDENCE, he left out of the Quran that he was observing sediment, and by COINCIDENCE, this verse
matches up with a scientific fact which researchers have only come to know today, that there is a barrier between salt and
fresh water. What do you think the probability of that is??
You see, critics are literally hanging themselves with a rope when they come up with these silly little stories... it is working
against them! Because they forget that every time they raise an issue of coincidence, MATHMETICS IS AUTOMATICALLY
INVOLVED! The more stories they can come up with, the more they dig themselves in a hole...
"Sailors must have noticed more buoyancy of their boats in the salty waters of the sea than when they were navigating in
rivers and lakes of sweet water" (Ali Sina)
Another hypothetical COINCIDENCE that it matches up with science?
probability.... probability...... probability....
"Waters that have different salinity, density and temperature do not mix readily, however they do eventually. But Muhammad
states that there is a barrier between them and a partition that is forbidden to be passed. This is of course not true." (Ali Sina)
We are not talking about waters that have different salinity, rather we are talking about a barrier between fresh and salt
waters..this barrier has been illustrated here:
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/miracles.html#Qur'an%20on%20Seas%20and%20Rivers:
as we know, there are many different types of barriers, for example, there are radiating barrier, Iron curtain barriers, leaky
barriers..etc. The Quran does not state what TYPE of barrier, and the ambiguous phrase, forbidding, inviolable barrier
(barzakhan wahijran mahjooran) does not tell us what TYPE of barrier.
"Muhammad must have heard about this phenomenon but his knowledge was not complete and he assumed that the waters
never mix. " (Ali Sina)
Total baseless assumption, show us proof of what you are saying if you are truthful.
"That is why he is talking of barriers between the seas. There is no such barrier at all and all waters do mix. " (Ali Sina)
This is a false statement, there is indeed a barrier between the seas.. science has confirmed this:
http://www.islamiccenterofpeoria.org/miracles.html#Qur'an%20on%20Seas%20and%20Rivers:
but is also important to point out that the Quran does not state what TYPE of barrier(radiating barrier, Iron curtain barriers,
leaky barriers..etc.). Therefore, here is the conclusion:
1. Quran accurately affirms that there are barriers between the seas and and between fresh and salt water.
2. To sum up what Ali states, he passes it off as a coincidence.. I am willing to hold this as a possibility, but we would need to
calculate the probability of this coincidence, and multiply it with the Ali Sina's other probabilities he cited:
1/2 X 1/10,000 X 1/10,000
3. Ali's attempt to show scientific error was thwarted.
Quran and Darkness of the Ocean
"Isn’t this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive into the water to know that the deeper you go the darker it becomes" (Ali
Sina)
You obviously seem lost here... from the very beginning of my debate, I said I would entertain all possibilities, in fact, I even
gave you all the logical possibilities:
IF Statement = Scientific fact THEN
(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)
A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genius
B. A very good guess, luck
C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great scientist
D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened to match
up with science),luck, and the author had no intention of talking
about science; it was an accident. No intention.
E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow)
F. The scientific fact is observable.
G. The information already pre-existed in history
(this can only be entertained if we have historical errors)
H. A source greater than man was involved
All you have done thus far is give examples of A-G , nothing else. Therefore, you are refuting nothing. Anyhow, you are
saying, that the author of the Quran saw light getting less, then made a correct guess, that out of the following possibilities:
A. at the very bottom it will be completely dark
B. the ground is refracting the light back
C. there is a point of equilibrium of light meaning the amount
of light stays constant the rest of the way down.
D. A shade of light must always exist, because HOW CAN FISH SEE WHERE THEY ARE GOING WITHOUT LIGHT?
HOW CAN PLANTS ON THE BOTTOM GROW WITH OUT LIGHT????????
So, as you can see, there are at least 4 possibilities. It would be common sense for a person to pick D , but I will be agreeable
with Ali here, and put the GUESS as 1/4 probability.
1/2 X 1/10,000 X 1/10,000 X 1/4
Iron sent down to earth
"The verse actually should not be taken literally. In this verse Muhammad is saying that we sent you everything that you need
including iron with which has mighty power i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not mean that the iron, among all
the elements, is the only element that has descended from the heaven" (Ali Sina)
What you are saying is a possibility, BUT CAN NOT BE PROVEN TRUE. But if what you are saying is true, then, this will fall
under the category of COINCIDENCE. And as you know, coincidence, is a bizarre accident.
"In Muhammad's language everything is "sent' to man by God and that is the meaning of this word andalna here" (Ali Sina)
This is FALSE. Man, Ali, you aint no scholar! No scholar would make such a stupid statement... the truth is..
First, The word is NOT andalna rather the word is anZalna, I don’t know of any word in the arabic dictionary "andalna" perhaps
you can go to the Hans Weir dictionary and show me? :) Another point, this error of yours tells me that you don’t know Arabic,
Mastery of the Arabic language is a prerequisite to becoming a scholar pal......the Quran mentions things which are from the
earth, and things which are not from the earth, here are some things which the earth produces according to the Quran:
36:36. Glory be to Him, Who has created all the pairs of that which the earth produces, as well as of their own (human) kind
(male and female), and of that which they know not so human beings are from earth:
71:17 . And Allâh has brought you forth from the (dust of) earth.
[Tafsir At-Tabarî, Vol.29, Page 97]. but it does not talk about the individual elements. A human is a composition of the many
elements which have settled on the earth, but the Quran does not say where those elements come from.
"He did not mean that God sent the iron from they sky but since the giver of the iron is God so the verb nadala is used." (Ali
Sina)
A statement with Absolutely NO proof, what Ali Sina is doing here, is just showing another hypothetical scenario of a
COINCIDENCE. that’s all....
"Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that the energy required to create one atom of iron equals several times the
energy stored in the sun." (Ali Sina)
You careless idiot, I did NOT say that.. rather I said to create one atom of Iron takes about 4 times as much energy of our
SOLAR SYSTEM. Do me a favor, STOP MISQUOTING ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Conclusion:
1. This statement of the Quran matches up with Science 100% . Science does indeed tell us that Iron could not have been
created by the earth, rather it had to have been sent down.
2. Ali, suggests but can not prove that it MAY BE a bizarre COICIDENCE, and you know what that means....... you got it!
PROBABILITY!!!!!! How does 1/500,000 sound?
Quran and Orbits
"Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and the Moon follow a fixed orbit" (Ali Sina)
False. Many different cultures had different explanations for the sun and moon, like birth and death, and all kinds of stuff..
here is an example:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0917/p18s01-hfgn.html
"The Quran is talking about neither the actual orbit of the sun around the central star of the Milky Way that takes 226 million
years nor the orbit of the moon around the Earth that takes 29 days. Muhammad is talking about the "perceived" orbit of these
objects that takes 24 hours. " (Ali Sina)
A statement with Absolutely NO proof, what Ali Sina is doing here, is just showing another hypothetical scenario of a
COINCIDENCE. that’s all.... Nevertheless, it is a hypothetical possibility...
From this point on, this wild-eyed fanatic Ali Sina flies off in a frenzy.. spinning his own personal interpretations, building straw
man, and reading into the Quran what is NOT their, I think someone needs to call in his nurse so he can be sedated. Let me
respond to just a few of this lunatic’s rantings:
"Dr. Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and did not think you are worth his time. You go around claiming you have
defeated him? How you have defeated him when he did not even dignify you with a response? " (Ali Sina)
You idiot, you are making a complete fool out of yourself, here is his response:
http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_response.htm
but look here … see how Ali Sina idolizes and looks up to a known pathological liar!!!
Birds of the same feather flock together…
Ali, you make this too easy for me. :)
"You try to debate with some recognized names on the net and even though they do not respond to you add them to your
portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who you really are" (Ali Sina)
For God sake take your medication, you are not coherent, man, you are making a complete ass out of yourself and I’m loving
every minute of it... :). If you see my website, I have a public debate for all those so called "big names" between me and them
on my website, and future debates are on the way… as for Robert Morey, he is toast. My article on him has damaged him
irrevocably. The really cool thing is MANY of his fans are writing me and agreeing with me that he is a liar.. currently I have 2
radio shows which both me and Robert Morey have been invited to debate... Morey is aware of them.. let’s hope he accepts...
and as for debating Morey, I believe he said yes, but I have fill out some kind of paper work, and get a letter from my Imaam lol
lol lol
"claiming to have won when we did not even start to debate" (Ali Sina)
what did I tell you? You didn’t listen to me, I told you DO NOT LIE ON ME. Where did I say I have won?? ( before you make an
ass out of yourself again, a knock down is not the same thing as a knock out.. right?) Where did I say I have won, Ali? I warned
you to stop your lying, But by the grace of God, you have been exposed as a liar, just like Robert Morey, and I believe my
mission is accomplished here in this post, what you have demonstrated, even when I gave you fair warning, you still could not
stop lying... because this is your nature.
Don’t forget, you must show us proof for the following statement:
"Muhammad and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book prior
to Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books." (Ali Sina)
If you can not come up with the evidence, you promised to shut down your filthy website. Remember these wise words:
Birds of the same feather flock together..
And as for your claim, Prophet Muhammed ((PBUH) is a truthful person and not a liar like you Ali Sina, you bum :-)
thanks,
Nadir Ahmed
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