Ali Sina writes:
Mr. Nadir Ahmad,
I followed your debate with Denis Giron as you requested and here are my observations:
You have chosen a few verses from the Quran and reinterpreted them to correlate with the modern science and then ask how
Muhammad in the 7th century could have known all that. This is called petitio principii. Your premises are as false as your
conclusion.
Denis already responded to you adequately. His responses satisfy any thinking man. I will add my two cents to what he said for
the benefit of the readers.
1-
The first "miracle" you stated was Muhammad’s alleged knowledge of the bees and the fact that they are female.
The fact that bees are female was already known to people at least 1000 years before Muhammad. The oldest book that
describes bees is attributed to Aristotle 350 BC.
Aristotle observed that the brood of drones appear even when there is no ruler bee in the hive. This is an accurate
observation. As we know today, unfertilized female workers can lay eggs in the absence of a queen, but the eggs develop into
drones. Aristotle gave a fairly accurate description of the bees with only few mistakes like confusing the gender of the Queen
and calling it the King.
What Muhammad said about bees? Let us see:
016.068
And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in (men's) habitations;
That is all the information there is in the Quran about the bees. There is nothing ground breaking in what we see in this verse.
This is something that not only people, but also the bears and the birds know. So Muhammad states something obvious known
to everyone including animals. What is the miracle in this verse? The "miracle" as Mr. Ahmad and other Muslims claim is that
Muhammad refers to bees in female gender.
The word bee in Arabic is nahla. This word was not invented by Muhammad. This is an Arabic word used by everyone who
speaks Arabic. The word is feminine. In Arabic some words are feminine some are masculine. For example Rahmat (mercy) is
a feminine word. The fact that Muhammad uses an Arabic word that happens to be feminine is no indication that he was the
first who discovered bees are female. In fact not all bees are female. As I said the gender of the worker bees was already
known to everyone at least for 1000 years before Muhammad. All Arabs used the same word even before Muhammad. Why
Muhammad should becalled a miracle maker and they who taught Muhammad the word should be called "ignorant", as
Muhammad desparagingly refered to all those who lived before him?
2-
The second "miracle" stated by Mr. Ahmad is the verse 89.7
It reads:
Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars,
What is so miraculous about this? Mr. Ahmed says it is the name Iram. Why?… Because, as he says Iram was a city of Arabia
that was destroyed in an earthquake and no one knew about it except Muhammad and it was only in the second half of the
20th century that it was discovered by the archeologists. Mr. Ahmed wonders how Muhammad knew this when no other text
mentions the name Iram.
Mr. Ahmed is living is self-delusion. How come a city was destroyed and no one knew about it? Isn’t this an absurdity? The
destruction of a city is a big event. It is obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their descendants. Pompeii,
Sodom and Gomorrah had similar fates. Although the actual cities were lost, they remained in our folklore. Who said no books
prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram? It makes no sense that Arabs forget completely about a city destroyed thus. Muhammad
and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book prior to
Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books. The tales of Iram with its lofty pillars must have
been in the lore of the people of Arabia and the way Muhammad casually mentions it with no further explanation is clear that
his audience already knew what he is taking about.
3-
The third "miracle" presented by Mr. Ahmed is the verse
25.53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He
made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Muslims say this is a miracle because Muhammad, if not divinely inspired, could not have known that two bodies of water do
not mix.
Again, this premise is wrong. First of all anyone going to the sea watching sweet waters carrying sediments flowing into the
salty waters of the ocean can see they do not mix immediately. In fact this is quite a scene and people who observed it must
have narrated to others in the land with amazement. This phenomenon was hence readily observable to everyone as it is
today. Sailors must have noticed more buoyancy of their boats in the salty waters of the sea than when they were navigating
in rivers and lakes of sweet water. Waters that have different salinity, density and temperature do not mix readily, however
they do eventually. But Muhammad states that there is a barrier between them and a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
This is of course not true. Muhammad must have heard about this phenomenon but his knowledge was not complete and he
assumed that the waters never mix. That is why he is talking of barriers between the seas. There is no such barrier at all and
all waters do mix.
This verse points to Muhammad’s ignorance and it is no miracle at all.
4-
The next "miracle" that has dumbfounded our friend is the verse 24:40 :
Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow,
topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for
any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!
Mr. Ahmed wonders how in the world Muhammad could have known that the dept of the sea is dark. I wished our opponent
had a little bit more commonsense. Isn’t this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive into the water to know that the deeper
you go the darker it becomes? Mr. Ahmed is under the impression that all the humanity is bozo and cannot understand these
simple facts that can be readily experienced by everyone. You surprise me Mr. Ahmed. Didn’t you really know that under the
water there is less light? Did you have to read the Quran to learn this simple fact that is known to sun and dry even those who
have no knowledge of the modern science?
I am always amazed to see the desperation of the Muslims to find miracles in the most banal statements of the Quran.
Mr. Ahmed, please understand that this verse is not trying to explain to the readers how the deep oceans look but it is
exemplifying the state of the unbeliever with something that is already known to everyone. This shows that people who read
this verse already knew that the dept of ocean is dark and with this example Muhammad tried to make them visualize the state
of the unbeliever. If they did not know that the dept of the deeper waters are dark then the verse would not express what it
intends to express. If I tell you my shirt is as green as my hat, when you have never seen my hat, you would not understand
how green is my shirt and I would not be speaking clear to you. Remember, clarity is one of the claims of the Quran. But if I
say my shirt is green like pine tree, you’ll soon know what kind of green I am talking about.
Furthermore Muhammad is not talking about "deep oceans". In deep oceans you do not need to "stretch your hand" as
Muhammad says, in order not to see it. You cannot see your hand without stretching it.
5-
The fifth miracle as stated by Mr. Ahmed is the verse 30:2 and 30:3
30.2
The Roman Empire has been defeated-
30.3
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,
Mr. Ahmed claims that the word near (Adna) can also be translated as lower and hence the above could be read: The Roman
Empire was defeated in the lowest land… Then Mr. Ahmad claims that since the Black Sea is it the lowest point on earth (1300
ft bellow sea level) then Muhammad has said something that no one could have known.
This is of course wishful thinking of a deluded believer and the absurdity of that is self-evident. The Romans were not
defeated in the Red Sea but in Jerusalem and Jerusalem is above sea level. If we had to take Mr. Ahmed for his word and
disregard the obvious meaning of the word, this verse would have become yet another blunder of Muhammad. However all the
interpreters of the Quran have translated the verse correctly. If Muhammad really wanted to impress his readers he could
have easily said that the Red Sea is the lowest land on Earth. Note that the verse is mentioning land and not sea. Muhammad
is taking about the Jerusalem and not about the Red Sea.
6-
The sixth miracle according to Mr. Ahmed is the verse:
57.025
We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong),
that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for
mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in
Might (and able to enforce His Will).
Mr. Ahmed says that according to the Modern science, iron is the only element that does not belong to the Earth but is sent
from heaven to Earth and hence the above verse is a miracle.
The truth is that four billion years ago, when our planet was still a scorching ball of fire, a giant asteroid mostly made of metal
struck the Earth scattering a lot of it to the sky. The asteroid however penetrated the core of the Earth. That is why the deeper
we go the more metal we find. However iron was not the only metal found that came with that asteroid. It contained many other
metals including gold.
The verse actually should not be taken literally. In this verse Muhammad is saying that we sent you everything that you need
including iron with which has mighty power i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not mean that the iron, among all
the elements, is the only element that has descended from the heaven. In Muhammad's language eveything is "sent' to man
by God and that is the meaning of this word andalna here. He did not mean that God sent the iron from they sky but since the
giver of the iron is God so the verb nadala is used. Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that the energy required to
create one atom of iron equals several times the energy stored in the sun. This is obviously absurd. This gentleman makes up
in bravado what he lacks in knowledge.
7-
The last "miracle" of the Quran mentioned by Mr. Ahmed is when Muhammad says: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its
own motion" (Qur'an 21:33; 36:40). Then he wonders: "How did the author of the Qur'an know of this?"
Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and the Moon follow a fixed orbit. This was known to our ancestors since the
dawn of time. However we see that the Sun and the Moon revolve around the Earth and this is the orbit that the Quran is
talking about. What Quran says about the orbits of the Sun and the Moon is the observable and perceived orbits of these
celestial objects caused by the rotation of the Earth. The Quran is talking about neither the actual orbit of the sun around the
central star of the Milky Way that takes 226 million years nor the orbit of the moon around the Earth that takes 29 days.
Muhammad is talking about the "perceived" orbit of these objects that takes 24 hours. Any ignorant man, even the animals,
could observe what Muhammad observed. Any ignorant man could have said what Muhammad said. Muhammad was not
aware of the actual orbit of the Moon that became known to humanity through the findings of Copernicus and Galileo let alone
the orbit of the Sun that was discovered in the 20th century.
This is clear from the verse 2:189.
"They ask you about the new moon. Say: They indicate the periods for (various activities of) mankind, and for the pilgrimage."
Muhammad is asked about the moon and why it changes shape. This was a perfect opportunity for him to say it is because of
the rotation of the moon around the Earth and because the light of the moon is a reflection of the light of the sun. But he did
not know the right answer. He instead said that the Moon is a giant clock/calendar in the sky created for the believers to know
what time of the month it is and when they should perform their pilgrimage.
Muhammad thought that the Sun and the Moon have similar orbits chasing each other in the sky while it is not allowed for the
Sun to catch the Moon.
036:040
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
We are dealing with a man with a very primitive mind. In the verse 10:5 Muhammad says that the Moon has its own light and
then reiterates that it is a calendar in the sky, created for us humans to measure the time.
10:5
PICKTHAL: He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and measured for her stages, that ye might
know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for
people who have knowledge.
Of course both these statements are false. The Moon has no light of its own nor it has anything to do with us humans. The
moon has been there probably as long as the Earth has been around and that is 4.5 billion years while we humans appeared
on this planet only 100,000 ago and will most likely disappear much sooner than the moon. It is ridiculous to assume that the
celestial objects have been created for us humans. We are merely one species among the millions inhabiting this planet.
Nothing is created for us. These ideas are childish and do not belong to this day and age of enlightenment.
There is no doubt that Muhammad used to think that Moon gives light.
25.61
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;
71.16
And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
Of course the Moon is not a lamp and it does not give light. These verses are enough to prove that the Quran is not revealed
by any knowledgeable god. Muhammad simply stated what was obvious to his eyes. His knowledge of the astronomy was no
more than any ignorant man of his time.
This is also clear when he says that the Sun "rises" and "sets" in murky waters. 18.86
Mr. Ahmed, in his debate with Denis Giron makes an astounding statement. He says that the critics could say that the orbits of
the Sun and the Moon mentioned in the Quran may indicate the rotation of these objects around the Earth. But he says this is
not so because Muhammad did not say such thing.
This reminds me of a joke we used to tell each other when in primary school. "We Iranians used to have wireless technology in
our ancient civilization. Why? Because the archeologists have not been able to find any wire in the old ruins."
Of course we were kids and this was a joke. However it seems that the brain of some grownup Muslims is even less evolved
than that of the children. So according to our esteemed opponent, if Muhammad did not say that the orbit he was talking about
is the rotation of the Sun around the Earth, he must have meant the rotation of the Sun around the black hole in the Milky
Way. It does not even occur to him to ask, if that was the case why he did not say that. Why he did not clarify that the moon
rotates around the Earth and the Earth rotates around the center of the Milky Way? The Milky Way is very visible in the
deserts of Arabia. Muhammad stated what he saw. That is virtually the same thing my cat can see. That is the Sun and the
Moon have orbits and they rotate the Earth.
These are the "miracles of science" that Mr. Ahmad wanted me to respond to. Actually Denis already responded to all these
claims. However Denis is very cautious and does not call the Quran to be a hodgepodge of gibberish. He tries to be politically
correct. He is even afraid to call a spade a spade and say all these verses are rubbish. He goes only as far to say that the
"knowledge" contained in these verses were already known to humans prior to Muhammad. What knowledge? Most of the
Quran is garbage.
The soft attitude of Denis has emboldened Ahmed who claims the possibility of Muhammad in being right in each and every
one of these verses is 1/500,000. Then he multiplies all these fractions and comes with an astronomically minute number and
states that the chance of Muhammad just guessing the correct answer each and every time is less than one over a number
with 26 zeros in front of it.
Dear. Mr. Ahmed. Please do not be fooled by Denis’s niceness. He is just trying to be politically correct. The truth is that your
Quran is the stupidest book ever written. There are not one or two but hundreds of errors in that book. It is a shame that a
man like you is so blinded with faith that cannot see the obvious errors of this book. But stick around. Don’t go anyway. We will
go over this book together and will find out more inanities of it together.
If you have finished with your "miracles", this time allow me to dig into that cesspool called Quran and pull out verses that
would embarrass you or hopefully open your eyes.
You also seem to not pay much attention to what others say. You have learned only one subject and you think this is such a
big hit that you want to play it in every occasion. Sadly you are not intelligent enough to see when you are defeated. Dr.
Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and did not think you are worth his time. You go around claiming you have
defeated him? How you have defeated him when he did not even dignify you with a response? The reason he gave is that
your way of debating is insulting your opponent. That is ad hominem and highly unscholarly. I do not blame him for not giving
you much credence. You claim that you defeated Denis Giron. I listened to your debate with him and to me it is clear that you
are the one who is defeated.
Judging by your performance and especially by your boasting and bravado, it is clear that you are not a scholar but a little
man in search of fame. You try to debate with some recognized names on the net and even though they do not respond to
you add them to your portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who you really are. I knew your games. At first, like Dr. Morey,
I thought you are not really worth my time. But seeing your boastfulness and bluster, I thought you would benefit if I put you in
your place and amuse the Internet folk at your expense. Perhaps this will teach you some humility and help you to become a
better debater.
I will continue debating with you, provided you behave like a scholar. Fortunately I heard your voice and you sound like a
grown up man. Otherwise judging by your bluster and arrogance I would have suspected you are just a teenager. If you want
to debate with me, you are required to behave like a scholar. I hope that is clear.
Now back to our discussion. You did not comment on my statement that even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle (which of
course as we are seeing it is not) Muhammad cannot be hailed as a prophet. The ethics and morality of Muhammad are
crucial to determine his truthfulness. A liar cannot be a prophet. Is that clear? Do you agree with this? Do you agree that if the
Quran is proven to be a miracle as you say and Muhammad is proven to be a criminal, there is a good chance that the Quran
was revealed to Muhammad by Satan? I need your statement on this subject before we can continue with our study of the
Quran.
Furthermore, please respond to other members. They are all better scholars than you. So debating with them will certainly add
to your profile and make you look important.
Kind regards
P.S. We generally treat our guests and oponents with respect. However your chest beating and swelling claiming to have won
when we did not even start to debate was a factor for me to deal with you in this way and bruise your nose so hopefully you
become more respectful in your future correspondance.
If anything you failed to answer my claim that even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle still Muhammad cannot be called a
prophet. This would only prove that he was inspired by Satan. Your silence in this regard tells me you have no response for
that and hence you are the defeated one in this first round.[img][/img][img][/img]
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light!
End of Part 1 ...
[Intro] [Part 1] [Part 2] [Part 3] [Part 4]
Back to the section of Nadir Ahmed
Send Email to Nadir Ahmed
Mr. Nadir Ahmad,
I followed your debate with Denis Giron as you requested and here are my observations:
You have chosen a few verses from the Quran and reinterpreted them to correlate with the modern science and then ask how
Muhammad in the 7th century could have known all that. This is called petitio principii. Your premises are as false as your
conclusion.
Denis already responded to you adequately. His responses satisfy any thinking man. I will add my two cents to what he said for
the benefit of the readers.
1-
The first "miracle" you stated was Muhammad’s alleged knowledge of the bees and the fact that they are female.
The fact that bees are female was already known to people at least 1000 years before Muhammad. The oldest book that
describes bees is attributed to Aristotle 350 BC.
Aristotle observed that the brood of drones appear even when there is no ruler bee in the hive. This is an accurate
observation. As we know today, unfertilized female workers can lay eggs in the absence of a queen, but the eggs develop into
drones. Aristotle gave a fairly accurate description of the bees with only few mistakes like confusing the gender of the Queen
and calling it the King.
What Muhammad said about bees? Let us see:
016.068
And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in (men's) habitations;
That is all the information there is in the Quran about the bees. There is nothing ground breaking in what we see in this verse.
This is something that not only people, but also the bears and the birds know. So Muhammad states something obvious known
to everyone including animals. What is the miracle in this verse? The "miracle" as Mr. Ahmad and other Muslims claim is that
Muhammad refers to bees in female gender.
The word bee in Arabic is nahla. This word was not invented by Muhammad. This is an Arabic word used by everyone who
speaks Arabic. The word is feminine. In Arabic some words are feminine some are masculine. For example Rahmat (mercy) is
a feminine word. The fact that Muhammad uses an Arabic word that happens to be feminine is no indication that he was the
first who discovered bees are female. In fact not all bees are female. As I said the gender of the worker bees was already
known to everyone at least for 1000 years before Muhammad. All Arabs used the same word even before Muhammad. Why
Muhammad should becalled a miracle maker and they who taught Muhammad the word should be called "ignorant", as
Muhammad desparagingly refered to all those who lived before him?
2-
The second "miracle" stated by Mr. Ahmad is the verse 89.7
It reads:
Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars,
What is so miraculous about this? Mr. Ahmed says it is the name Iram. Why?… Because, as he says Iram was a city of Arabia
that was destroyed in an earthquake and no one knew about it except Muhammad and it was only in the second half of the
20th century that it was discovered by the archeologists. Mr. Ahmed wonders how Muhammad knew this when no other text
mentions the name Iram.
Mr. Ahmed is living is self-delusion. How come a city was destroyed and no one knew about it? Isn’t this an absurdity? The
destruction of a city is a big event. It is obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their descendants. Pompeii,
Sodom and Gomorrah had similar fates. Although the actual cities were lost, they remained in our folklore. Who said no books
prior to Muhammad mentioned Iram? It makes no sense that Arabs forget completely about a city destroyed thus. Muhammad
and his followers destroyed all the books that belonged to the pre Islamic era of "jahiliyyah". If no other book prior to
Muhammad mentions this city it is because Muhammad burned those books. The tales of Iram with its lofty pillars must have
been in the lore of the people of Arabia and the way Muhammad casually mentions it with no further explanation is clear that
his audience already knew what he is taking about.
3-
The third "miracle" presented by Mr. Ahmed is the verse
25.53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He
made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Muslims say this is a miracle because Muhammad, if not divinely inspired, could not have known that two bodies of water do
not mix.
Again, this premise is wrong. First of all anyone going to the sea watching sweet waters carrying sediments flowing into the
salty waters of the ocean can see they do not mix immediately. In fact this is quite a scene and people who observed it must
have narrated to others in the land with amazement. This phenomenon was hence readily observable to everyone as it is
today. Sailors must have noticed more buoyancy of their boats in the salty waters of the sea than when they were navigating
in rivers and lakes of sweet water. Waters that have different salinity, density and temperature do not mix readily, however
they do eventually. But Muhammad states that there is a barrier between them and a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
This is of course not true. Muhammad must have heard about this phenomenon but his knowledge was not complete and he
assumed that the waters never mix. That is why he is talking of barriers between the seas. There is no such barrier at all and
all waters do mix.
This verse points to Muhammad’s ignorance and it is no miracle at all.
4-
The next "miracle" that has dumbfounded our friend is the verse 24:40 :
Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow,
topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for
any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!
Mr. Ahmed wonders how in the world Muhammad could have known that the dept of the sea is dark. I wished our opponent
had a little bit more commonsense. Isn’t this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive into the water to know that the deeper
you go the darker it becomes? Mr. Ahmed is under the impression that all the humanity is bozo and cannot understand these
simple facts that can be readily experienced by everyone. You surprise me Mr. Ahmed. Didn’t you really know that under the
water there is less light? Did you have to read the Quran to learn this simple fact that is known to sun and dry even those who
have no knowledge of the modern science?
I am always amazed to see the desperation of the Muslims to find miracles in the most banal statements of the Quran.
Mr. Ahmed, please understand that this verse is not trying to explain to the readers how the deep oceans look but it is
exemplifying the state of the unbeliever with something that is already known to everyone. This shows that people who read
this verse already knew that the dept of ocean is dark and with this example Muhammad tried to make them visualize the state
of the unbeliever. If they did not know that the dept of the deeper waters are dark then the verse would not express what it
intends to express. If I tell you my shirt is as green as my hat, when you have never seen my hat, you would not understand
how green is my shirt and I would not be speaking clear to you. Remember, clarity is one of the claims of the Quran. But if I
say my shirt is green like pine tree, you’ll soon know what kind of green I am talking about.
Furthermore Muhammad is not talking about "deep oceans". In deep oceans you do not need to "stretch your hand" as
Muhammad says, in order not to see it. You cannot see your hand without stretching it.
5-
The fifth miracle as stated by Mr. Ahmed is the verse 30:2 and 30:3
30.2
The Roman Empire has been defeated-
30.3
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,
Mr. Ahmed claims that the word near (Adna) can also be translated as lower and hence the above could be read: The Roman
Empire was defeated in the lowest land… Then Mr. Ahmad claims that since the Black Sea is it the lowest point on earth (1300
ft bellow sea level) then Muhammad has said something that no one could have known.
This is of course wishful thinking of a deluded believer and the absurdity of that is self-evident. The Romans were not
defeated in the Red Sea but in Jerusalem and Jerusalem is above sea level. If we had to take Mr. Ahmed for his word and
disregard the obvious meaning of the word, this verse would have become yet another blunder of Muhammad. However all the
interpreters of the Quran have translated the verse correctly. If Muhammad really wanted to impress his readers he could
have easily said that the Red Sea is the lowest land on Earth. Note that the verse is mentioning land and not sea. Muhammad
is taking about the Jerusalem and not about the Red Sea.
6-
The sixth miracle according to Mr. Ahmed is the verse:
57.025
We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong),
that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for
mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in
Might (and able to enforce His Will).
Mr. Ahmed says that according to the Modern science, iron is the only element that does not belong to the Earth but is sent
from heaven to Earth and hence the above verse is a miracle.
The truth is that four billion years ago, when our planet was still a scorching ball of fire, a giant asteroid mostly made of metal
struck the Earth scattering a lot of it to the sky. The asteroid however penetrated the core of the Earth. That is why the deeper
we go the more metal we find. However iron was not the only metal found that came with that asteroid. It contained many other
metals including gold.
The verse actually should not be taken literally. In this verse Muhammad is saying that we sent you everything that you need
including iron with which has mighty power i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not mean that the iron, among all
the elements, is the only element that has descended from the heaven. In Muhammad's language eveything is "sent' to man
by God and that is the meaning of this word andalna here. He did not mean that God sent the iron from they sky but since the
giver of the iron is God so the verb nadala is used. Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that the energy required to
create one atom of iron equals several times the energy stored in the sun. This is obviously absurd. This gentleman makes up
in bravado what he lacks in knowledge.
7-
The last "miracle" of the Quran mentioned by Mr. Ahmed is when Muhammad says: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its
own motion" (Qur'an 21:33; 36:40). Then he wonders: "How did the author of the Qur'an know of this?"
Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and the Moon follow a fixed orbit. This was known to our ancestors since the
dawn of time. However we see that the Sun and the Moon revolve around the Earth and this is the orbit that the Quran is
talking about. What Quran says about the orbits of the Sun and the Moon is the observable and perceived orbits of these
celestial objects caused by the rotation of the Earth. The Quran is talking about neither the actual orbit of the sun around the
central star of the Milky Way that takes 226 million years nor the orbit of the moon around the Earth that takes 29 days.
Muhammad is talking about the "perceived" orbit of these objects that takes 24 hours. Any ignorant man, even the animals,
could observe what Muhammad observed. Any ignorant man could have said what Muhammad said. Muhammad was not
aware of the actual orbit of the Moon that became known to humanity through the findings of Copernicus and Galileo let alone
the orbit of the Sun that was discovered in the 20th century.
This is clear from the verse 2:189.
"They ask you about the new moon. Say: They indicate the periods for (various activities of) mankind, and for the pilgrimage."
Muhammad is asked about the moon and why it changes shape. This was a perfect opportunity for him to say it is because of
the rotation of the moon around the Earth and because the light of the moon is a reflection of the light of the sun. But he did
not know the right answer. He instead said that the Moon is a giant clock/calendar in the sky created for the believers to know
what time of the month it is and when they should perform their pilgrimage.
Muhammad thought that the Sun and the Moon have similar orbits chasing each other in the sky while it is not allowed for the
Sun to catch the Moon.
036:040
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
We are dealing with a man with a very primitive mind. In the verse 10:5 Muhammad says that the Moon has its own light and
then reiterates that it is a calendar in the sky, created for us humans to measure the time.
10:5
PICKTHAL: He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and measured for her stages, that ye might
know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for
people who have knowledge.
Of course both these statements are false. The Moon has no light of its own nor it has anything to do with us humans. The
moon has been there probably as long as the Earth has been around and that is 4.5 billion years while we humans appeared
on this planet only 100,000 ago and will most likely disappear much sooner than the moon. It is ridiculous to assume that the
celestial objects have been created for us humans. We are merely one species among the millions inhabiting this planet.
Nothing is created for us. These ideas are childish and do not belong to this day and age of enlightenment.
There is no doubt that Muhammad used to think that Moon gives light.
25.61
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;
71.16
And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
Of course the Moon is not a lamp and it does not give light. These verses are enough to prove that the Quran is not revealed
by any knowledgeable god. Muhammad simply stated what was obvious to his eyes. His knowledge of the astronomy was no
more than any ignorant man of his time.
This is also clear when he says that the Sun "rises" and "sets" in murky waters. 18.86
Mr. Ahmed, in his debate with Denis Giron makes an astounding statement. He says that the critics could say that the orbits of
the Sun and the Moon mentioned in the Quran may indicate the rotation of these objects around the Earth. But he says this is
not so because Muhammad did not say such thing.
This reminds me of a joke we used to tell each other when in primary school. "We Iranians used to have wireless technology in
our ancient civilization. Why? Because the archeologists have not been able to find any wire in the old ruins."
Of course we were kids and this was a joke. However it seems that the brain of some grownup Muslims is even less evolved
than that of the children. So according to our esteemed opponent, if Muhammad did not say that the orbit he was talking about
is the rotation of the Sun around the Earth, he must have meant the rotation of the Sun around the black hole in the Milky
Way. It does not even occur to him to ask, if that was the case why he did not say that. Why he did not clarify that the moon
rotates around the Earth and the Earth rotates around the center of the Milky Way? The Milky Way is very visible in the
deserts of Arabia. Muhammad stated what he saw. That is virtually the same thing my cat can see. That is the Sun and the
Moon have orbits and they rotate the Earth.
These are the "miracles of science" that Mr. Ahmad wanted me to respond to. Actually Denis already responded to all these
claims. However Denis is very cautious and does not call the Quran to be a hodgepodge of gibberish. He tries to be politically
correct. He is even afraid to call a spade a spade and say all these verses are rubbish. He goes only as far to say that the
"knowledge" contained in these verses were already known to humans prior to Muhammad. What knowledge? Most of the
Quran is garbage.
The soft attitude of Denis has emboldened Ahmed who claims the possibility of Muhammad in being right in each and every
one of these verses is 1/500,000. Then he multiplies all these fractions and comes with an astronomically minute number and
states that the chance of Muhammad just guessing the correct answer each and every time is less than one over a number
with 26 zeros in front of it.
Dear. Mr. Ahmed. Please do not be fooled by Denis’s niceness. He is just trying to be politically correct. The truth is that your
Quran is the stupidest book ever written. There are not one or two but hundreds of errors in that book. It is a shame that a
man like you is so blinded with faith that cannot see the obvious errors of this book. But stick around. Don’t go anyway. We will
go over this book together and will find out more inanities of it together.
If you have finished with your "miracles", this time allow me to dig into that cesspool called Quran and pull out verses that
would embarrass you or hopefully open your eyes.
You also seem to not pay much attention to what others say. You have learned only one subject and you think this is such a
big hit that you want to play it in every occasion. Sadly you are not intelligent enough to see when you are defeated. Dr.
Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and did not think you are worth his time. You go around claiming you have
defeated him? How you have defeated him when he did not even dignify you with a response? The reason he gave is that
your way of debating is insulting your opponent. That is ad hominem and highly unscholarly. I do not blame him for not giving
you much credence. You claim that you defeated Denis Giron. I listened to your debate with him and to me it is clear that you
are the one who is defeated.
Judging by your performance and especially by your boasting and bravado, it is clear that you are not a scholar but a little
man in search of fame. You try to debate with some recognized names on the net and even though they do not respond to
you add them to your portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who you really are. I knew your games. At first, like Dr. Morey,
I thought you are not really worth my time. But seeing your boastfulness and bluster, I thought you would benefit if I put you in
your place and amuse the Internet folk at your expense. Perhaps this will teach you some humility and help you to become a
better debater.
I will continue debating with you, provided you behave like a scholar. Fortunately I heard your voice and you sound like a
grown up man. Otherwise judging by your bluster and arrogance I would have suspected you are just a teenager. If you want
to debate with me, you are required to behave like a scholar. I hope that is clear.
Now back to our discussion. You did not comment on my statement that even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle (which of
course as we are seeing it is not) Muhammad cannot be hailed as a prophet. The ethics and morality of Muhammad are
crucial to determine his truthfulness. A liar cannot be a prophet. Is that clear? Do you agree with this? Do you agree that if the
Quran is proven to be a miracle as you say and Muhammad is proven to be a criminal, there is a good chance that the Quran
was revealed to Muhammad by Satan? I need your statement on this subject before we can continue with our study of the
Quran.
Furthermore, please respond to other members. They are all better scholars than you. So debating with them will certainly add
to your profile and make you look important.
Kind regards
P.S. We generally treat our guests and oponents with respect. However your chest beating and swelling claiming to have won
when we did not even start to debate was a factor for me to deal with you in this way and bruise your nose so hopefully you
become more respectful in your future correspondance.
If anything you failed to answer my claim that even if the Quran is proven to be a miracle still Muhammad cannot be called a
prophet. This would only prove that he was inspired by Satan. Your silence in this regard tells me you have no response for
that and hence you are the defeated one in this first round.[img][/img][img][/img]
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light!
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